ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

SCOTLAND

The Secretary of State was asked—

Independence (Jobs)

Lindsay Roy: What assessment he has made of the potential effects on jobs in Scotland of Scottish independence.

David Mundell: The UK Government firmly believe that Scotland is, and always will be, better off in the UK. The UK Government are undertaking a programme of analysis to evaluate how Scotland contributes to, and benefits from, being part of the UK.

Lindsay Roy: I thank the Minister for that answer. Will he explain why there is so much concern among those working in the defence and supply chain industries in Scotland over the future of their jobs?

David Mundell: I can advise the hon. Gentleman that, as of April, there were 15,880 regular armed forces and Ministry of Defence civilian personnel based in Scotland, and an additional 40,000 people employed in defence-related industries in around 800 companies. Not one of those people could guarantee their job under an independent Scotland.

James Gray: The SNP’s commitment to a nuclear-free Scotland will presumably mean the end of Trident, the end of the Vanguard submarines that carry it and the end of Rosyth. Am I right in thinking that that affects something like 6,500 jobs in Scotland? Does the Minister think that these jobs would be replicated elsewhere, or would those people simply lose their jobs, thanks to an SNP Government?

David Mundell: I can advise my hon. Friend that by 2020, there will be 8,000 jobs based at Faslane, following the recent announcement by the Secretary of State for Defence of an additional 1,500 jobs. There is absolutely no certainty about what would happen to anybody employed in the Ministry of Defence or the defence industries in Scotland under an independent Scotland.

Stewart Hosie: The list of recent investment and job announcements in Scotland has been quite remarkable, particularly in the renewables sector. The Minister will know there were £2.3 billion-worth of completed projects to July this year, and that there is
	a future pipeline of £9.4 billion with many thousands of jobs attached. Each of those investment decisions has been taken in the sure and certain knowledge that the referendum is coming and independence is likely. Why does the Minister think that these investment decisions continue to be made, and why is nobody listening to his scare stories?

David Mundell: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis. These investments are taking place despite the uncertainty, not because of it. I tend to agree with the chief executive of Aggreko, who said yesterday in giving evidence to a parliamentary Committee that the supposed benefits of independence were “small and tenuous” and unlikely to arise, while the dangers were “large and serious”.

Stewart Hosie: The Minister mentions uncertainty, but the only uncertainty we have seen is the massive increase made in the North sea supplementary charge with no discussion with the sector, and the uncertainty for employees now that this Government are making it easier to sack people. Is it not the case, as Douglas Sawers of Ceridian said when he made a significant investment earlier this year, that in the event of independence, the Scottish Government’s approach will be to make Scotland more, not less, competitive? Is that not the truth? Instead of scare stories, we are going to move to independence with a Government who will make Scotland more, not less, competitive?

David Mundell: When the people of Scotland make a decision on independence in the referendum, they must be sure that that decision is a long-term one. Independence is not for Christmas 2014. If the hon. Gentleman looked at the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, he would see that it says that an independent Scotland would face much harder decisions than the rest of the UK in the longer term.

Anas Sarwar: The Minister will be aware that 30,000 Scots are employed by UK Government agencies to work as civil servants in Scotland, including in the Department for International Development, which has 450 staff members in East Kilbride. What would happen to those jobs if Scotland voted for independence, and has there been any clarity on that from the SNP?

David Mundell: There has been no discussion between the SNP, or indeed the Scottish Government, and the UK Government about the future of defence- based jobs, civil service jobs or any other jobs in Scotland. The people in those jobs would face, as would everybody else, great uncertainty if Scotland were to become independent.

Independence Referendum (Electoral Commission)

Bob Blackman: What role the Electoral Commission will play in the referendum on Scottish independence.

Karen Lumley: What role the Electoral Commission will play in the referendum on Scottish independence.

Michael Moore: The agreement reached between the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments recognises the importance of the independent Electoral Commission and that the referendum should be based on the normal rules for referendums held across the UK.

Bob Blackman: It is clearly important for all parties to respect the independence of the Electoral Commission. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the SNP Administration in Scotland were to ignore the commission’s advice, that would taint the whole process and call into question whether the referendum was fair?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the expertise and experience of the Electoral Commission, which is indeed a highly respected institution. I do not think that it would be in the interests of the Scottish Government or any nationalists to pit themselves against the commission’s advice.

Karen Lumley: Does my right hon. Friend share the concern that the referendum question submitted to the Electoral Commission by the Scottish Government is weighted in favour of a positive outcome?

Michael Moore: I understand the concern that people feel about the formulation presented by the Scottish Government, but I think that, given its great experience, great expertise and trusted status, the Electoral Commission is in the right position to carry out the right procedures. I am ready to stand by its advice, and I hope that the Scottish Government are too.

Ian Davidson: Does the Secretary of State accept that while the Electoral Commission may be a trifle wishy-washy on occasion, it is necessary for an impartial body to decide important questions such as the question of the question? The alternative is for separatists to be both referee and player, and it is simply unacceptable for the party that is on one side of the argument to decide the rules as well.

Michael Moore: I entirely agree with the eminent Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee. He and his colleagues have been conducting a series of investigations of that issue and others relating to independence. I believe that the referendum must be seen to be fair to both sides. We cannot possibly have folk calling the outcome into question at the end of the process, which is why we have laboured long and hard to secure a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. I hope that the Scottish Government will accept the Electoral Commission’s advice.

Ann McKechin: Given that any proposal to extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds is unlikely to take effect until the spring of 2014, will the Electoral Commission provide advice on how all those young people will be able to register and vote in any referendum?

Michael Moore: The hon. Lady has raised an important point about the potential extension of the franchise. It will be for the Scottish Government to present detailed proposals, but I imagine that the Electoral Commission will be closely involved in the guidance that is provided for all voters as we approach the referendum.

Eleanor Laing: Yesterday, the gentleman who gave evidence to the Select Committee chaired by the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on behalf of the Yes Scotland campaign for separation refused to state categorically that his campaign would abide by the advice of the Electoral Commission. What sanctions can be imposed on a Government, a Parliament or a campaign that blatantly refuses to take the commission’s advice ?

Michael Moore: I understand my hon. Friend’s anxiety, but this Government and their predecessors have always followed the advice of the Electoral Commission, and I would expect the Scottish Government to do so as well.

Michael Weir: The Secretary of State has just asserted yet again that no Government have ever ignored the advice of the Electoral Commission, and has implied that the Scottish Government might. Far from ignoring the commission’s advice, the Scottish Government have yet to receive it. Meanwhile, the right hon. Gentleman’s Government have rejected the Electoral Commission’s advice on the desirability of referendums on council tax in England. Will he now put the record straight?

Michael Moore: I hope that I can reassure the hon. Gentleman and help him to calm down. As the Electoral Commissioner John McCormick said on television just the other weekend,
	“For every referendum that has taken place, the Electoral Commission’s advice and question has been accepted.”
	As for the issue of local government referendums, none has taken place. We have already said that we have reflected on the Electoral Commission’s advice, and I shall be presenting proposals on that question very shortly.

Businesses

Andrea Leadsom: What steps his Department is taking to promote businesses in Scotland around the world.

Alun Cairns: What steps his Department is taking to promote businesses in Scotland around the world.

Michael Moore: The Government are committed to promoting United Kingdom businesses, including in Scotland, around the world. Brian Wilson, the former Trade Minister, is currently carrying out a review of Scottish exporting and has been appointed a UK business ambassador with special focus on Scotland.

Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that, as well as promoting business, we need to support businesses at this time when access to finance is so difficult? What steps is he taking to work with the devolved Government to ensure that there are prompt payments in the supply chain, and in particular that the public sector pays private sector suppliers in a timely fashion?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Government are committed to ensuring that private sector suppliers are paid on time so they can sustain their businesses, and I am happy to work with the Scottish Government, or anybody else in the public sector, to ensure that everybody adheres to best practice.

Alun Cairns: What action is the Secretary of State taking to ensure there is no conflict between Scottish Development International and UK Trade & Investment when they use public money to try to attract companies either side of the border by offering bigger carrots?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend underlines the importance of trade for the Scottish and UK economies. Scotland’s exports are worth some £22 billion, but to put things in perspective, that is half the value of what we sell into England, Wales and the rest of the UK. SDI has 21 offices in 13 countries, whereas UKTI has 162 offices in 96 countries, and 270 Foreign and Commonwealth Office consuls operate in 170 countries. That network offers a great opportunity to Scottish business to get the best out of the United Kingdom. It is important that we work together, and it is clear that we are stronger together and would be weaker apart.

Margaret Curran: As we have seen, the work undertaken here has an impact on Scottish businesses both at home and abroad. May I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to the troubles that Scottish businesses are currently experiencing, however? Unemployment is now higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Recent research by the Fraser of Allander Institute reveals another challenge for the Scottish economy and Scottish businesses: it found that welfare changes in Glasgow alone will remove £115 million from the local economy and lead to the loss of almost 2,000 jobs across Scotland. What does the Secretary of State plan to do about that?

Michael Moore: I share the hon. Lady’s analysis in this respect: there is a huge mess that has to be cleared up, and there are significant challenges and some deep-seated problems in the Scottish and UK economies, as well as real problems on our doorstep in Europe. Every time she comes to the Dispatch Box, however, she tries to duck Labour’s responsibility for the mess we inherited, and she simply cannot do that. We are determined to ensure that through welfare reform we make work pay, by supporting the most vulnerable and helping people into work. We are also determined to put money back into the pockets of low-income and middle-income Scots; from next April, 162,000 will be taken out of tax entirely, and 2 million will have seen their tax bills reduced.

Margaret Curran: Perhaps I can draw the Secretary of State’s attention to some of the comments made by his Liberal Democrat colleagues, who I do not think share his enthusiasm for his welfare changes, and ask him to focus on the loss of jobs that they will cause in Scotland. Perhaps he should focus a little more on that. The truth is that the Government’s policies are hitting Scotland hard, and the Secretary of State must start addressing the work his Government are doing in Scotland. Earlier this month in a letter to me, the Secretary of State revealed he is not on a single one of the Cabinet Committees dealing with either the economy or welfare. The last time I questioned the Secretary of State we had no action on food banks, and now there is no action on Scotland’s economy. It would seem that he does not understand the impact of the welfare changes in Scotland. When are you going to start doing your job in relation to the Scottish economy?

Mr Speaker: Order. I am certainly doing my job, but I think the hon. Lady is referring to the Secretary of State, and we will now hear about how he is doing his.

Michael Moore: Once again, we are going to take no lessons from the Labour party about the state of the United Kingdom economy. We have a plan that will make sure we deal with the mess it left us, and that gets us back on the right track and gets us sustainable growth—unlike Labour, which has no plan whatever.

Independence Referendum

David Amess: What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the referendum on Scottish independence.

John Robertson: When he last met the First Minister to discuss the planned referendum on Scottish independence.

Michael Moore: I have discussed the referendum with the Scottish Government on a number of occasions, most recently on 15 October, when Scotland’s two Governments reached agreement on the process to ensure that there is a legal, fair and decisive referendum.

David Amess: Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the arguments for separation is based on the false premise that it would be good for the Scottish economy? Does he agree that separation would be good for the English economy but not for the Scottish economy?

Michael Moore: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom economy. We would be weaker if we were outside it, primarily because it gives us access to this huge single market which takes twice as many of our exports—if we can call them that—as anywhere else in the world; it has the resilience to absorb huge financial catastrophes, such as the bank collapse; and it gives us the clout internationally to be at the top table, where all the key economic decisions are made. That is far better for Scotland.

John Robertson: Does the Secretary of State agree that last week we saw an example of what happens when people do not listen to the Electoral Commission—the debacle of the police commissioner elections, with a turnout of less than 10% in some places and empty boxes? Will he talk to the Scottish Government to ensure that a similar debacle does not happen in Scotland?

Michael Moore: Funnily enough, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman on the example he uses, but I am in complete agreement with him on the principle that we should listen to the Electoral Commission and follow its advice.

Eilidh Whiteford: I was not particularly going to ask about this issue, but I am happy to ask the Secretary of State—

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady might let Mr Wishart have a go then. Come on, let’s hear him.

Pete Wishart: Thank you for clearing up that confusion, Mr Speaker.
	Can the Minister confirm that following the Edinburgh agreement, which all parties agreed to, the referendum on independence is now exclusively a matter for the Scottish Parliament and that this House has no further role in it?

Michael Moore: I know that the hon. Gentleman always wants to denigrate the Parliament of which he is a part, and I wish he would stop doing that, but I point out to him that a rather important part of that agreement is that we will pass the section 30 order, which will transfer the powers to the Scottish Parliament. Importantly, that will involve debates in this place and in the other place, as well as in the Scottish Parliament. We are all part of this debate, and all Scots will be part of that political process.

William Bain: When the Secretary of State next meets the First Minister will he share with him the powerful call of President Clinton and Secretary Albright when they visited these shores reminding us that what binds us together is far more powerful than any distinctions in identity?
	On economic co-operation, was the Institute for Fiscal Studies not right to point out that if we want to diversify the Scottish economy away from our dependence on oil and gas revenues, we need not only a shared currency and interest rate, but a powerful and strong fiscal union which benefits Scotland? That is the likely result in terms of our shared prosperity in the future.

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman makes two important points. One is that when senior international figures look at the issue confronting Scots—the most important political decision in 300 years—time and again they say that they think Scotland would be better off as part of the United Kingdom. Secondly, the report he highlights is significant as it shows the strength of Scotland’s economy as part of the UK, both in terms of its opportunity and in reducing the risks attached to it. [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many noisy private conversations are taking place—mainly on the Opposition Benches at the moment. Let us hear from Mark Pritchard.

NATO

Mark Pritchard: What recent assessment he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the UK’s membership of NATO; and if he will make a statement.

David Mundell: Scotland is stronger in defence terms as part of the United Kingdom within NATO. NATO is the bedrock of our national security, and the UK is one of its largest contributors. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would gain automatic membership.

Mark Pritchard: What discussions has my right hon. Friend held with the Scottish Government on their dialogue with NATO, given that so many within that Government are anti-nuclear and NATO is a pro-nuclear alliance?

David Mundell: It is not clear whether the Scottish Government have had any dialogue with NATO about prospective membership and it is quite clear that membership could not be guaranteed. As the NATO Secretary-General said, the
	“door does not open…just because you stand in front of it.”

Thomas Docherty: Rosyth dockyard in my constituency works for the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy. Will the Minister clarify whether, if Scotland were a separate country, regardless of its NATO membership, Rosyth dockyard would get work from the Royal Navy?

David Mundell: Many UK defence contractors benefit from contracts that are exempt from EU procurement rules for national security reasons, meaning that they have to be placed or competed for within the United Kingdom. Many such contracts have been awarded in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and there is no guarantee that they would be awarded in an independent Scotland.

Menzies Campbell: Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is an inherent contradiction in saying that one thinks that nuclear weapons are an obscenity while at the same time wishing to join an alliance based on both conventional and nuclear deterrence? Are not those two positions wholly irreconcilable?

David Mundell: I absolutely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Some honourable former members of the Scottish National party, such as MSPs Jean Urquhart and Mr Finnie, agree with him and they could not reconcile their positions. Many SNP MSPs continue to sit in government in Scotland, however, despite being unable to reconcile those two positions.

Economy

Ian Murray: What recent assessment he has made of the economy in Scotland.

Michael Moore: The UK Government have reduced the deficit by a quarter and we are taking important steps to promote growth. Cutting corporation tax, accelerating infrastructure projects and establishing the funding for lending scheme are just some of the range of measures being implemented.

Ian Murray: Does the Secretary of State agree with the recent assessment of the Institute for Fiscal Studies that in the event of a separate Scotland the economy will not be sustainable in the long term?

Michael Moore: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman. We will have much stronger opportunities if we continue as part of the United Kingdom than we will if we go our own separate way.

Robert Smith: Vion has put up for sale McIntosh Donald, a meat processing factory at Portlethen in my constituency that employs 600 people. Will the Secretary of State emphasise to any potential buyer north-east Scotland’s
	excellent reputation for high-quality meat production and the importance of the factory in a route to market for that excellent product?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important point. These have clearly been difficult months, particularly for those employed by Vion at Hall’s in West Lothian, and now we have the sale of the rest of the group. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend and other Scottish colleagues to discuss the implications, and encourage everybody to see the potential in the company. I hope that we will sustain the jobs that are in it.

Tom Greatrex: Vion’s decision to cease operations in Scotland also affects up to 400 people in my constituency in Cambuslang. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is intolerable for the company to refuse to provide those 400 people, who are obviously very anxious about their future, with meaningful information? Will he make contact with the company to remind them that they should be ensuring that their employees get clarity about their positions as soon as possible?

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point and I shall certainly take it up on his behalf and add to his efforts with the company. I will be happy to meet him in due course to discuss it further.

Superfast Broadband

Alan Reid: What steps the Government are taking to widen access to superfast broadband in Scotland.

David Mundell: The UK Government are committed to delivering the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. As part of that, the Scottish Government were allocated more than £100 million to support broadband improvements. It is now the responsibility of the Scottish Government to deliver on this investment by the UK Government.

Alan Reid: I am pleased that the Government have allocated more than £100 million to Scotland for rural high-speed broadband. Will the Minister do all he can to encourage the Scottish Government and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to get a move on and use that money to bring high-speed broadband to the rural parts of Argyll and Bute as soon as possible?

David Mundell: I most certainly will encourage the Scottish Government and all other agencies to get on with deploying rural broadband. My constituents are as concerned about it as the hon. Gentleman’s.

Michael Connarty: I am very concerned, as everyone is, about all of Scotland getting superfast broadband. Is the Minister aware that BT is going to use fibre optics in West Lothian, and has just announced that it is going to roll out copper wire into Bo’ness and parts of my constituency? Copper wire is last century’s technology. Will he intervene and talk to BT about rolling out fibre optics to all parts of Scotland, so that superfast broadband is a reality for everyone?

David Mundell: I am happy to arrange a meeting involving myself, the hon. Gentleman and BT to discuss that issue.

Angus MacNeil: In what appears to be a break with the constant scaremongering in this Session, may I ask the Minister whether he agrees that broadband coverage percentages should be based on local authority area rather than national area?

David Mundell: What I think is that the Scottish Government, having been given £100 million by the UK Government to roll out broadband, should get on with it in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and elsewhere.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked—

Engagements

Tristram Hunt: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 21 November.

David Cameron: Before I list my engagements, the whole House will wish to join me in sending our sympathies and our condolences to the family of Captain Walter Barrie, of 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland. He was described as a fantastic, engaging and professional soldier. He will be truly missed by all who knew him. Our nation must never forget his service and his sacrifice. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]
	This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have further such meetings later today.

Tristram Hunt: May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Barrie and all our soldiers working so heroically in Afghanistan?
	In Stoke-on-Trent, libraries are closing, teachers are being laid off and youth clubs are shutting their doors. Given that public funds are so precious, does the Prime Minister really think it was a good use of taxpayers’ money to waste £100 million on the farcical police and crime commissioner elections in November?

David Cameron: I think it is good that, right across the country, we are now going to have local law and order champions, who will stand up for the public and ensure that we get a good deal from the police. I have noticed that Labour has two criticisms of the police and crime commissioners: on the one hand it said we spent too much money; on the other hand, it said that we did not spend enough money promoting the elections. I am prepared to accept one criticism or the other, but not both.

Claire Perry: Yesterday the British Government borrowed money from international investors at record low levels, saving taxpayers millions of pounds. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is more evidence that our economic plans are working?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a good point, which is that because of the fact that we have a credible plan to get on top of debt, to get on top of
	deficit, to show how we will pay our way in the world, we have record low interest rates, which were described by the shadow Chancellor as the key test of economic credibility.

Edward Miliband: May I start by joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Walter Barrie, of 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland? He showed the utmost courage and bravery, and all our thoughts and condolences are with his family and friends.
	May I also express my deep sorrow about the loss of life and suffering in Israel and Gaza in recent days, including the latest appalling terrorist attack on a bus in Tel Aviv? There is widespread support on both sides of the House for the agreement of an immediate and durable ceasefire in Israel and Gaza, so will the Prime Minister set out, in his view, the remaining barriers to that ceasefire agreement now being reached?

David Cameron: May I say how much I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the appalling news this morning about the terrorist attack on a bus in Tel Aviv? May I also express our deep concern about the intolerable situation for people in southern Israel and the grave loss of life in Gaza?
	The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically what more we can do to help bring this ceasefire about. I think that all of us, right across the European Union, and in America and beyond, need to be putting pressure on the Israeli Prime Minister and all those who have contacts with Hamas, to de-escalate, to stop the fighting, to stop the bombing; and that is exactly what I have done. Over the weekend, I spoke twice to the Israeli Prime Minister and once to the President of Israel—my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is working very hard on this as well—to persuade both sides that we need a ceasefire. Beyond that, obviously what we need is proper discussions about the future of Israel and Palestine.

Edward Miliband: I agree with the Prime Minister: he is right to say that any such ceasefire deal can be turned into permanent peace only if there is a resumption of meaningful negotiations towards a two-state solution. This week has shown us once again that there is neither peace nor a peace process, and the reality is that the international community bears some responsibility for the abject failure to have those meaningful negotiations, nine years on from the promise of the road map for peace. Can the right hon. Gentleman set out for the House what steps beyond the hoped-for ceasefire need to be taken to pressure both sides into meaningful negotiations?

David Cameron: I agree that we need a process to be put in place and we have to do everything we can to persuade President Obama that this should be a leading priority for his second presidential term, but I make this point: of course we all want this process and we all want this peace, but in the end peace can come about only by Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and talking through the final status issues—they have to discuss borders, Jerusalem and refugees. In the end, as President Obama is fond of saying, and I agree, we cannot want this more than they want it. We have to encourage them, provide the framework and push for a process, but in the end we need courageous leadership from Israelis and Palestinians to talk through those final status issues.

Edward Miliband: That is completely right, but we have to use every means at our disposal to pressure both sides into those negotiations, because the reality is that confidence that there can be a two-state solution is dwindling month by month. There will be an opportunity to support the cause of the two-state solution at the UN General Assembly later this month by recognising enhanced observer status for the Palestinian Authority. The Opposition support that because we believe it will strengthen the moderate voices among the Palestinians who want to pursue the path of politics, not the path of violence. I urge the Prime Minister to consider adopting that position in the days ahead.

David Cameron: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the first part of what he said: confidence is dwindling that there is time left for a two-state solution. That is why there is such a sense of urgency in the international community—this could be the last chance for peace, because the facts on the ground are changing. Frankly, I think it is so much in Israel’s interest now to push for the two-state solution, so we should keep up the pressure.
	On the potential vote at the United Nations, our view, which I know the Foreign Secretary set out for the House in some detail yesterday, is that the Palestinians should not take it to the UN in the short term, and we have urged them not to do that. Clearly, if they do so, we will have to consider the right way to vote. The point is this: we will not solve this problem at the United Nations; it will be solved only by Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and negotiating. Indeed, there may be dangers in pushing the issue too early at the UN in terms of funds for the Palestinian Authority being cut off and all the other consequences, so let us get negotiations going, rather than discussions at the UN.

Alan Beith: If the Prime Minister wants to send a clear message that Scotland and England belong together and have a better future together, should he not be doing his best to make sure that the principal road from London to Edinburgh is a modern dual carriageway and does not become a country lane?

David Cameron: My right hon. Friend makes a very attractive spending bid for the autumn statement. Although my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is not here, I am sure that Treasury colleagues were listening closely.

Julie Hilling: The Prime Minister claimed that universal credit will
	“bring about the most fundamental and radical changes to the welfare system since it began”.
	Given the Government’s propensity for omnishambles, can he guarantee that the second phase of universal credit will be implemented in April 2014 and not delayed?

David Cameron: Universal credit is a good reform and I thought it was welcomed across the House because it puts in place proper work incentives for people at all levels of income, and is also highly progressive in channelling money to those who need it the most. I can tell the hon. Lady that universal credit is on time and on budget and, indeed, a pilot scheme is to start shortly.

Robert Buckland: The person responsible for the murder of Becky Godden-Edwards, whose mother is my constituent, has not been brought to justice because important incriminating evidence was excluded from the court process. Will my right hon. Friend join our cause in calling for a thorough review of code C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, so that such terrible situations will not occur in future?

David Cameron: I will look very carefully at what my hon. Friend raises and the specific case he mentions. I will also look at the issue of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. It is always important that all information that possibly can be put in front of a court is put in front of a court, so that it can reach the correct decision.

Rosie Cooper: Cuts in front-line policing, together with cuts to police pensions and conditions in service, have led 96% of the police force to believe that this Government do not support them. Does the Prime Minister think that that is a problem and, if so, what will he do about it?

David Cameron: This Government strongly support our police service and what it does. These are people who go out every day and put their lives on the line to keep the rest of us safe. Frankly, whoever was in government right now would have to be making cuts to police budgets, but if we actually look at what is happening in policing, we see that the number of neighbourhood police has gone up, the percentage of police on the front line has gone up, the number of police in back-office roles has gone down and, crucially, that crime is down and satisfaction with the police is up.

Damian Hinds: So that people do not have to wade through hundreds of bamboozling tariff plans, will the Prime Minister confirm that this Government will legislate to ensure that people can access the best deals, which the Leader of the Opposition failed to do as Energy Secretary?

David Cameron: I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that, having stood at this Dispatch Box and said that we wanted to ensure that people got access to the lowest tariffs, that is exactly what we have achieved. If Opposition Members have doubts about this, let me quote a Labour shadow Energy Minister, who said this about our change:
	“It also means some of the most expensive deals would have to go...Being able to reduce the number of tariffs for people is going to help people get a clearer picture of what is happening and that can only be a good thing.”
	That is the sort of endorsement that I welcome.

Edward Miliband: The Government promised that there should be no rationing in the NHS on grounds of cost alone. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether he has kept that promise?

David Cameron: The promise that we have kept is that we said that we would increase NHS spending every year under this Government, and in England that is what is happening. In Wales, of course, there is a massive cut in the NHS, because it is run by Labour.

Edward Miliband: First of all, there are 7,000 fewer nurses in the NHS than when the Prime Minister came to power, according to the figures published this morning. I asked him a specific question about the promise made a year ago by the then Health Secretary—the Prime Minister sacked him and he is now the Leader of the House—that there would be no rationing on the grounds of cost alone, but the president of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists said recently—[ Interruption. ] Government Members should listen, because he said that
	“PCTs are not following government guidelines.”
	Half of health commissioners are restricting access to cataract surgery. [ Interruption. ] I do not think that the Prime Minister should ask the former Health Secretary for help, because he got rid of him from the post. Can the Prime Minister tell me why, for the first time in six years, the number of cataract operations actually fell last year?

David Cameron: What I can tell the right hon. Gentleman is that, under this Government, the number of doctors is up, the number of operations is up, waiting lists are down and waiting times are down. That is what is happening because we took the responsible decision. He quotes primary care trusts, which, of course, we are abolishing and putting the money into front-line services. That is what is happening under this Government. The Opposition and he believe that increasing spending on the NHS is irresponsible; we think it is the right thing to do.

Edward Miliband: Once again, the Prime Minister has no clue about the detail—he has no idea what is actually happening out there on the ground. To give him credit, he did make history this week, because he now has his very own word in the “Oxford English Dictionary”: “omnishambles.” The reality is that the reason people are suffering on the ground is that he has wasted billions of pounds on a top-down reorganisation of the NHS that nobody wanted and nobody voted for, just like he wasted millions of pounds on police commissioner elections. He does not listen, he is out of touch and last Thursday the people of Corby spoke for the country.

David Cameron: Last Thursday the people of Humberside spoke for the whole nation. [Hon. Members: “More!”] Happily, there is more, because the former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, said that this
	“is not just about the police. This is a referendum on everything this…government has done…On the health, on the education, on the local authorities”,
	and people took the first opportunity to kick him out.
	I think that it is the leader of the Labour party who made history this week, because he told his conference that he wanted to be Disraeli; he told Radio 4 that he wanted to be Margaret Thatcher; he came to this House and said that he was more Eurosceptic than Bill Cash; and then he went to the CBI and said that he loved Europe even more than Tony Blair. He has impersonated more politicians than Rory Bremner, but this time the joke is on him.

Gordon Henderson: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a free press is one of the cornerstones of a true
	democracy, and that any attempt to muzzle newspapers, such as those of the excellent Kent Messenger Group in my constituency, should be strenuously resisted?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I join him in expressing my admiration for the Kent Messenger Group and all that it does. The problems there have been in our newspaper industry have not concerned regional and local titles, which perform an incredibly important function in our democratic system. However, we all have to wait for the Leveson report, study it carefully and respond to what it says.

Tom Harris: Allow me to present a tale of two companies. The first is Red Hot Comics in my constituency, which employs seven people and pays every penny of the tax that is due, on time. Its main competitor, Amazon UK, brings in revenue of up to £4.5 billion, and yet last year it paid less than £1 million in tax. Will the Prime Minister follow the example of the French Government, who have issued a back claim for unpaid tax against Amazon, or will he allow us to draw our own conclusions about whose side he is on?

David Cameron: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about ensuring that companies make fair contributions and fair tax payments in our country. We have put an extra £900 million into the Inland Revenue to ensure that we get companies and individuals to pay their taxes properly. Yesterday I announced that one of the key priorities of the G8, which I will be chairing from January and which, I am pleased to announce, will meet in County Fermanagh in Northern Ireland next June, will be to get proper international agreement so that companies pay their taxes properly.

Paul Uppal: May I highlight for my right hon. Friend a free school that will be opening in one of the most deprived wards in Wolverhampton next year? It will provide a real ladder for social mobility for young people. It is a great, tangible advert for what this Government are doing in education, and he is more than welcome to visit.

David Cameron: That is a very kind invitation. I recently held a meeting at No. 10 Downing street for all the 78 free schools that have been established over the past two and a half years. We are making good progress. I want many hundreds of free schools to be established between now and the next election. It is of note that, whereas the last Government managed 200 hundred academies in 13 years, we have managed 2,000 in two and a half years. We want to give the academies and free schools agenda the biggest boost that we can.

Central Ayrshire

Brian H Donohoe: When he next expects to visit Central Ayrshire.

David Cameron: I look forward to visiting Scotland soon and will obviously look carefully at whether I can visit the hon. Gentleman’s constituency of Central Ayrshire.

Brian H Donohoe: I thank the Prime Minister for his response. A few months ago, he came to Troon in my constituency and he was going to give me the opportunity to take him around. One of the areas I was going to take him to was the Troon shipyard, where I served my apprenticeship many years ago—in fact, when he would probably still have been in short trousers. Outside the door of the shipyard on a Thursday was a man called the tallyman, who was a loan shark. He charged half a crown, which is 12.5p, per £1 each week on a loan to a shipyard worker. Today, we are hearing all about these—

Mr Speaker: Order. May we have a question? One short sentence. Now.

Brian H Donohoe: Mr Speaker, you hold one of the great offices of state, as does the Prime Minister. What is he personally going to do to drive these sharks out of our economies?

David Cameron: I enjoyed my visit to Troon. I made the offer to the hon. Gentleman at that time that I would happily share a platform with him to defend our United Kingdom, but for some reason the invitation got lost in the post. I therefore make the offer to him again.
	The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point about payday loans. We have seen the preliminary report by the Office of Fair Trading. We need to take action, and that is why we are giving the OFT a new power to suspend a consumer credit licence with immediate effect when there is an urgent need to protect consumers. The report shows that many companies are not sticking to the guidelines, and that is not acceptable.
	Engagements

Iain Stewart: Has my right hon. Friend seen the recent Experian study which shows that Milton Keynes is the area of the UK best placed to lead economic growth, with a forecast growth of 3.1% a year?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is a great spokesman for Milton Keynes and has welcomed me there many times. It has a successful economy based largely on small and medium-sized enterprises. One thing we need to do, in Milton Keynes and elsewhere, is to get the housing market moving again. I am convinced that that is an important part of driving recovery in our economy.

Mary Glindon: Many young apprentices receive very low wages—the youngest only £2.60 an hour. Is it fair for the Prime Minister to take housing benefit from young people who cannot live with their parents but are trying hard to build a future for themselves?

David Cameron: The Government strongly support the growth in apprenticeships, and we have seen something like 1 million new apprenticeships under this Government. I know that housing benefit is a very important issue, but there is a problem, which needs proper attention: we seem to give some young people a choice today, in that if they are on jobseeker’s allowance they can have access to housing benefit, but if they are living at home and
	trying to work they cannot. We need to recognise that in many cases we are sending a negative signal to young people through our welfare system.

Andrew Stunell: Is it still the Prime Minister’s intention that this should be the greenest Government ever?

David Cameron: Yes, it is. It is this Government who, in record time, have established a Green Investment Bank that is now in Edinburgh and starting to make loans.

Simon Danczuk: I am sure the Prime Minister agrees with me that a Government spokesman describing the report by the Children’s Commissioner into child abuse as “hysterical” was extremely unhelpful. Victims of abuse already find it difficult to come forward, including those who were abused by Cyril Smith in Rochdale. Will the Prime Minister now help these victims by publishing all the police files on Smith, and ensure that a police investigation takes place into all the allegations and any cover-up?

David Cameron: On the hon. Gentleman’s first point, the issue that is being examined is very serious, and we need to study carefully the interim report that has been produced. It has some extremely disturbing findings and we need to give every encouragement to the Children’s Commissioner to ensure that a final version of the report is produced. The specific issue raised by the hon. Gentleman concerns very serious allegations about a former Member of this House. I understand that Greater Manchester police have today confirmed that they will investigate any allegations of sexual abuse involving the late Sir Cyril Smith from 1974 onwards.
	I say to the hon. Gentleman and all Members of this House, particularly in the light of what has happened over the past few weeks, that if anyone has information or facts they should take them to the police. That is the way we should investigate these things in this country.

David Ruffley: Businesses are helping to cut the borrowing deficit by paying tax on their profits. Some multinationals, such as Starbucks and Amazon, appear to be paying low amounts of UK corporation tax. Does the Prime Minister think that that part of the tax code needs investigating?

David Cameron: I think it does need investigating. I have asked the Treasury to do that and it is looking as hard as it can at what can be done. There are clearly things that one can do nationally, and that is worth examining. Because we live in a competitive global economy where companies can move their capital, headquarters or money around, we need greater international agreements. We have come to a very important international agreement with Switzerland that will recover billions of pounds of tax for our country, but we need to work hard. That is where the G8 can help to ensure we get a fair share of tax from companies, especially given that Britain is doing its bit to cut rates of corporation tax to some of the most competitive in the world.

Kate Hoey: The Prime Minister quite rightly praised the wonderful work of London’s emergency services during the Olympics, Paralympics and Her Majesty’s jubilee. Does he share the concern of the London public about the number of fire stations that are threatened with closure, in particular the one in Clapham Old Town in my constituency? Will he join the campaign to save that fire station, and does he agree that it is not right to choose a fire station for closure simply because it is on very expensive land?

David Cameron: Obviously this is an issue for the Mayor as well as for the Government, but I will look closely at what the hon. Lady has said. Hon. Members must recognise that the most important thing is the time it takes the emergency services to get to an incident. As constituency MPs, we are naturally focused on the bricks and mortar items—whether ambulance or fire stations, or other facilities—but what really matters for our constituents is how quickly the emergency services get to them and how good the service is when they do so.

Tony Baldry: Does my right hon. Friend share my deep disappointment, and that of many hon. Members on both sides of the House, that the Church of England yesterday failed to make proper provision for women bishops? It was a sad day for our national Church and our national character, particularly given that 42 of 44 dioceses voted overwhelmingly in support of women bishops. Is the dangerous consequence of that vote not the disestablishment of the Church of England but simply disinterest?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend speaks with great expertise and knowledge. On a personal basis, I am a strong supporter of women bishops and am very sad about how the vote went yesterday. I am particularly sad for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, because he saw this as a major campaign that he wanted to achieve at the end of his excellent tenure of that office. It is important for the Church of England to be a modern Church that is in touch with society as it is today. This was a key step it needed to take.

Iain Wright: The Prime Minister promised that his start-up loans scheme would provide 2,500 loans to young entrepreneurs to get their business ideas off the ground, but only 43 loans have been granted. Why has he not delivered on his promise?

David Cameron: The start-up loans initiative is a very strong one. I want to look at putting even more resources into it, because there is a major demand. At well as start-up loans, we have the enterprise allowance scheme. That was originally available only after people had been unemployed for three months, but under this Government it will be available from the first day of someone being unemployed. In the 1980s, many people used an enterprise allowance scheme to start up their first business and get their foot on the first rung of the ladder. Those are the sorts of people we want to help.

Angela Watkinson: Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Drapers’ academy, which is in the most deprived ward in my constituency? It is sponsored by the Drapers’ Company and Queen Mary college, London. In only its second year, it has become the fastest improving school in the country, and is a wonderful example of the Government’s academy scheme.

David Cameron: I certainly join my hon. Friend in that. One strength of the academy programme is in getting sponsors such as the Drapers’ Company, and other businesses and organisations, behind a school and helping to change its culture and improve it. That is why we set a new target last week for academies taking over failing primary schools. We do not think that academies should be restricted to secondary schools; we want to see sponsored academies taking over primary schools where results are not good enough. All hon. Members can now focus on this: because of effective academy sponsors, some schools in inner-city areas are doing better than schools in some of the leafy shires and suburbs. We can use that change to drive up aspiration and achievement right across our education system.

Ben Bradshaw: Following the Prime Minister’s answer to the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) a moment ago, and given that the Church of England is the established Church, will the Prime Minister consider what Parliament can do to ensure that the overwhelming will of members of the Church and of the country is respected?

David Cameron: I will certainly look carefully at what the right hon. Gentleman has said. The Church has its own processes and elections. They might be hard for some of us to understand, but we must respect individual institutions and the decisions they make. That does not mean we should hold back in saying what we think. I am very clear that the time is right for women bishops—it was right many years ago. The Church needs to get on with it, as it were, and get with the programme, but we must respect individual institutions and how they work, while giving them a sharp prod.

David Nuttall: The cut in this country’s EU budget rebate, which was agreed by the
	last Labour Government, is now costing taxpayers £2 billion every single year. Will the Prime Minister please confirm that in the forthcoming budget negotiations he will not agree to any further reduction in the rebate?

David Cameron: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. The rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher is an incredibly important part of Britain’s position in Europe and making sure that we get a fair deal. It is absolutely extraordinary that the last Government gave away almost half that rebate, and we have never heard one word of apology or regret for the fact that however hard we fight in Europe—and I will fight incredibly hard this week for a good deal—they have cut away our footing by giving away half the rebate.

Alasdair McDonnell: I congratulate the Prime Minister on his very wise decision to bring the G8 summit to County Fermanagh and confirm the enthusiasm with which that decision has been received in Fermanagh. Does he think it will be possible to bring further similar prestigious events to Northern Ireland in the future?

David Cameron: I will certainly look at that. It really is the right decision for the G8 to be based in Northern Ireland and at Lough Erne on 17 and 18 June. I was talking with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister yesterday about this, and it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago to have such an event, with so many world leaders coming to Northern Ireland. It will be a great advertisement for Northern Ireland and everything that its people can achieve. I hope that it will also be the harbinger of further events to come.

Andrew Selous: Does the Prime Minister agree that the United Kingdom’s retention of its triple A status, when France lost its triple A rating this week, shows that the UK retains the confidence of international markets because of the difficult but necessary decisions that we are taking?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Because we have set out a clear plan, we are able to have low interest rates and international confidence, which is line 1, paragraph 1 of the proper growth plan for the UK.

Point of Order

Diana Johnson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that it is not a convention of the House of Commons for the Second Church Estates Commissioner to make a statement to the House, but in the light of the extraordinary decision of the General Synod of the Church of England last night not to have women bishops, is it possible to have a statement from the hon. Gentleman setting out what the Church intends to do next, and what this means for the continuing discrimination in the other place with only men being eligible to sit in the House of Lords as Church of England bishops?

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. She is right to say that it is no part of the convention of this House that the Second Church Estates Commissioner makes statements to the House. The right to make a statement of the kind that she has in mind is reserved to Ministers. The hon. Lady may however wish to explore whether the Minister for Women and Equalities has any responsibilities in relation to this matter, and whether there are avenues by which she may pursue this issue. It is certainly open to the Minister for Women and Equalities to make a statement to the House. In the meantime, I would simply say that very strong voice to opinion in this House has been given today on both sides. I will leave it there for today.

BBC (Audit Arrangements and Publication of Invoices)

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

Alun Cairns: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the British Broadcasting Corporation to publish all invoices for amounts in excess of £500 each quarter; to allow unrestricted access to the Corporation’s accounts by the National Audit Office; and for connected purposes.
	I wish to state at the outset that I am a friend, strong supporter and advocate of the BBC. My original request for this Bill stems back to May, and was preceded by protracted communications with the previous director-general, Mark Thompson, seeking to gain voluntary agreement on this Bill’s intentions. The events of recent weeks have nothing to do with my motivation in seeking to bring about greater transparency in how the licence fee is spent, although some issues that have arisen help to demonstrate the need for more openness, along with the need for a cultural shift to respond to demands from the public. The first element of the Bill would require the BBC to publish all invoices for more than £500 on a quarterly basis. That would bring the corporation in line with local authorities and, although it would meet the aspirations of the Government’s public transparency agenda and the Efficiency and Reform Group objectives, should not be interpreted as political interference. The Bill merely follows public expectation.
	The licence fee is the UK’s biggest regressive tax: the poorer one is, the greater the proportion of one’s income is spent on it. That places a strong moral obligation on the BBC to demonstrate that it is using money in the most prudent manner. Under the Bill, the BBC would allow the public to see exactly how their money was being spent, and that would encourage participation and scrutiny. That would lead to innovation, procurement and, ultimately, savings. The BBC would be better informed, and new opportunities could lead to better feedback and a change in its priorities. Naturally, the BBC’s special independence must be protected with appropriate safeguards, but they need to be set as an absolute minimum and seen as the exception rather than the rule.
	There are several examples of questionable expenditure that could be cited: business consultants, retirement dinners, accommodation charges, and the cost of sending 100—or even, in 2008, 175 staff—to cover US elections. I am sure that all hon. Members have enjoyed BBC hospitality in some way or another, but we need to know how much money is being spent. One constituent asked me how much was spent on after-show parties, after a successful series or even after every episode of “Strictly Come Dancing” or similar programmes. There are concerns about how some journalists compete personally and refuse to share resources. Why does the BBC pay to advertise through other media, when it already reaches nearly all the population? It is not that these activities are necessarily wrong, but the public have a right to know how much they cost.
	Publication of invoices would also provide an ongoing report on how many people are paid through personal services companies in their efforts to reduce income tax
	liability. The National Audit Office was originally refused access in this area, yet on 2 May BBC News was all too keen rightly to expose the fact that Ed Lester, the former chief executive of the Student Loans Company, was paid through such an arrangement. The irony is that that has been standard practice in the BBC for many years; it is just that it has been hidden.
	Public statements made by senior BBC figures suggest that the organisation would be among the strongest supporters of the Bill. Unfortunately, there has been significant evidence of a lack of action on those statements. Sir Michael Lyons and later Lord Patten have continued to resist unrestricted access for the Comptroller and Auditor General. There is a series of correspondence between the Secretary of State and the chairmen on gaining an agreement on the extent of access. The case of personal service companies is an example, because we still do not know the details of the policy.
	BBC talent is another area that needs investigation. It has become a catch-all title that extends well beyond known personalities, arguably in an effort to block publication of more newsworthy data. I simply do not accept that there should be a blanket ban on the publication of BBC talent details. In this day and age, it is difficult to believe that the NAO does not have unrestricted access. How many other bodies are allowed to dictate the terms and timing of audit investigations and publications?
	It is to the credit of the previous Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport that he secured a significant agreement earlier this year dramatically to improve the CAG’s access. However, there continues to be no right of access—it remains by agreement only. Nor does it cover the whole scope of NAO activities. The correspondence suggests that respective BBC chairmen frustrated the calls by the Secretary of State, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee and the Broadcasting Committee in the other place. Restrictions remain, and the time has come to legislate.
	Current arrangements mean that the BBC must agree to the area the NAO wishes to investigate. The NAO needs to give 12 months’ notice of its plans, which can only be amended at stated quarterly intervals. This is hardly unrestricted access; nor does it allow investigations into controversial news developments to take place. Recent concern surrounding the terms of departure of
	the director-general have led to calls for the NAO to investigate. Unfortunately, the agreement means that it is powerless to look into such matters. Even after the Secretary of State said in the House that the NAO would investigate, the latter stated that it could not do so immediately unless the BBC Trust referred itself for such scrutiny.
	The publication arrangements are also worrying. By contrast to the NAO, which reports to Parliament and the public, the BBC reports to the BBC Trust, which then considers the matter and responds. That is followed by a BBC management reaction, with rebuttals, and it is only then that the NAO investigation is passed to the Secretary of State for publication. The BBC decides on the timing. I am absolutely sure that all other bodies would welcome such a privileged position in relation to auditing. It puts considerable power and influence over reporting in the hands of the BBC, compared with every other body. That situation has been questioned by the Select Committee and the Government, and efforts have been made to improve the situation.
	Over recent years, there has rightly been increasing demand for greater transparency from the public. Some bodies, including this place, took longer to recognise it. Now all details are published, including potential conflicts of interest. It is important that the BBC, like all bodies, responds to these demands and reacts to the Bill by voluntarily publishing invoices of £500 and over, and opening all elements of its operations to the NAO. That would underline the special role that the BBC plays in our nation.
	In closing, I suggest that the BBC could go even further by voluntarily publishing registers of interest of key people to highlight potential conflicts of interest, and it could truly embrace the spirit and the letter of the Freedom of Information Act. Unless the BBC responds positively, I fear that it could be the subject of future legislative demands.
	Question put and agreed  to .
	Ordered,
	That Alun Cairns, Mr David Amess, Mr Richard Bacon, Guto Bebb, Stephen Barclay, Dan Byles, Philip Davies, Robert Halfon, Dr Phillip Lee, Ian Paisley and James Wharton present the Bill.
	Alun Cairns accordingly presented the Bill.
	Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 25 January 2013, and to be printed (Bill  92 ).

Opposition Day
	 — 
	[10th Allotted Day]

Security in Northern Ireland

Nigel Dodds: I beg to move,
	That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.
	At the very outset of this debate I want once again to place on record, on behalf of my hon. Friends, and I am sure everybody in this House, our heartfelt and sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Prison Officer David Black—an innocent public servant going to work when he was brutally gunned down in cold blood by despicable criminals. His death will leave a massive void in the lives of his wife and children that will never be filled. We continue to think of Mrs Black and her children; our thoughts and prayers are with them. There is no doubt that Mrs Black’s call at the time of her husband’s murder for no retaliation was an example of immense courage and bravery, which, as I said in response to the Secretary of State’s statement at the time, stood in stark contrast to the darkness in the hearts of her husband’s killers. We will remember him and his colleagues, and all those who have died in the service of defending Northern Ireland. It is our duty to do all we can, as far as possible, to ensure that this kind of violence is thwarted and defeated.
	There is no doubt about the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over recent years. As the Prime Minister has said, his announcement yesterday that Fermanagh would host the G8 summit next June would have previously been unthinkable—he said it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, but I think it would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. It is an immense opportunity for Northern Ireland to showcase its talents and the opportunities that we can provide to a worldwide audience. It is a momentous event. We warmly welcome the announcement and thank the Prime Minister for taking that step, which is a mark of the progress we have made. Another was the visit by Her Majesty to the Irish Republic last year and the diamond jubilee celebrations that took place in Northern Ireland, where for the first time in decades—I think maybe for the first time ever—Her Majesty was able to be greeted by thousands of ordinary people in Belfast and move about in an open-top vehicle without the massive security that would normally attend any kind of event involving Her Majesty. Again, that is an indication of the progress that has been made.
	There is also the ongoing work that happens every day at Stormont and throughout Northern Ireland—parties working together, alongside the First and Deputy First Ministers, with Ministers representing a number of parties doing the day-to-day work of government, committed to working for and on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland. It is important to put on
	record the gains that have been made through devolution in Northern Ireland. Even today, my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has tabled early-day motion 752, which draws attention to other significant achievements for Belfast and Londonderry, which is now recognised as the fourth best city in the world to visit, according to the “Lonely Planet” guide, and will be the UK city of culture next year. These are immense strides forward in Northern Ireland. I pay tribute to everyone, right across the community and across all parties, who has played a part in bringing about that progress and, of course, to successive Governments as well.
	But Mr Black’s murder showed us that, despite the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, there remains a crazed and fanatical republican element that is determined to try to drag our community backwards, into the darkest days of the past. Just last Monday a viable explosive device, which police said was designed to kill and maim, was discovered near my constituency off the Ballygomartin road. The device was found near a local school—Springhill primary school—and if it had gone off, the consequences, in terms of loss of life or serious injury to innocent civilians and schoolchildren, would have been very serious indeed. The device is thought to have fallen from the vehicle that belonged to its intended target, either a police officer or a soldier.
	That incident, coming after the murder of David Black, shows that we are in a very serious situation indeed. Nor do we forget the murder of Constable Ronan Kerr in April last year, or the murder of Constable Stephen Carroll in March 2009, which came just two days after the killing of Sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at Massereene barracks. All those murders were carried out by so-called dissident republicans. There have also been many attacks and incidents that have been successfully thwarted by the excellent work of the police, through intelligence and co-operation with other elements of the security forces, including those in the Irish Republic. These murders all demonstrate the intent of the republican groups and the greater degree of planning and organisation that is now evident.
	It is sometimes easy, especially from the perspective of those on this side of the Irish sea, to believe that everything in Northern Ireland is now sorted out.

Lady Hermon: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would agree that it would be helpful if the Government were to sanction the publication of the inventories of the weapons that were decommissioned by loyalist terrorists—because that is what they were—and republican terrorists, supervised by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, so that the people of Northern Ireland and of the United Kingdom generally could compare what is claimed to have been decommissioned with what we reckon still to be available out there to enable dissident republicans to carry out yet another ghastly murder. I join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning the murder of the prison officer and in giving the greatest praise to his wonderful family, who have shown themselves to be beacons of dignity.

Nigel Dodds: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. She raises an issue that has been raised a number of times by Members from Northern Ireland and elsewhere
	about the decommissioning process. We have said on previous occasions that it would be useful for the process that we are engaged in if the public were allowed to know exactly what was decommissioned by the various terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. I remember attending meetings with the decommissioning body, along with other hon. Friends, at which we sought clarification as to the circumstances in which that information would eventually be released. My understanding was that a judgment would be made at a suitable juncture when the entire decommissioning process was finished. It was certainly the intention of General de Chastelain, who was then the chairman of the decommissioning body, that the information should be released in due course. It would be helpful if it were released, for the reasons that the hon. Lady has given.
	We were among those who wanted the greatest possible transparency for the decommissioning process. Indeed, we pressed for it to be made clear to the public, through video evidence and photographs, exactly what was being decommissioned. Famously, however, the republican leadership refused to abide by that at the time. Unfortunately, their refusal to accept that reasonable argument, which was designed to reassure people in Northern Ireland that what was happening was real and sincere, delayed the introduction of devolution by some considerable time. It raised doubts about the sincerity of the republican movement.
	I was making the point that people can sometimes fall into the belief that everything has been sorted out and settled, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The events that I have been describing, including the tragic murder of David Black, have served to remind everyone that massive challenges remain. I know that the Ministers and shadow Ministers who are here today do not hold that belief, but it is important that we should debate the issues here today and consider them carefully. We need to take note of the progress that has been made, as well as making it clear to the people of Northern Ireland that there is no complacency and no sense of the challenges being underestimated.
	The criminals want to take the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland back to the days of death, bloodshed and mayhem, but all of us in Northern Ireland and here, throughout the country, are determined that they will not succeed. After the death of David Black, the First Minister said:
	“The Assembly and the Executive will not fall or collapse—far from it. We are united in condemnation and reinforced in our determination to create a stable, shared and peaceful society.”
	He was absolutely right in his assessment. Those evil people will not succeed. Such terrorism did not succeed in the past, and it will not succeed now.
	It is important to make the point that the violence that was carried out in the past, over 30 or 40 years, by the Provisional IRA was just as despicable, unnecessary and evil as the violence that is being carried out today by the so-called dissidents. I echo the point made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that the violence that was carried out by other groups, on the loyalist side, was terrorism. It is important for the sake of the victims that we do not get into a mindset of thinking that all the violence today is terrible while the violence that took place in the past was part of a
	conflict in which there could be grey areas and justifications. The violence that was carried out by the Provisional IRA, and others, for 35 years was just as evil as the violence that is being carried out today. It was never justified then, and it is not justified now.

Laurence Robertson: I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. A few days ago, I attended the remembrance service to mark the 25th anniversary of the Enniskillen bomb, and nothing could have made the point that he is making more clearly than that. The unnecessary nature of that act still lives with us today. I echo his assertion that we must never forget those people either.

Nigel Dodds: It was excellent that the hon. Gentleman and colleagues from the Northern Ireland Select Committee were able to be in Enniskillen to join the First Minister and other elected representatives, the families of the victims and members of the community in County Fermanagh on that solemn occasion. There are many reminders: we are coming up to the anniversary of the Ballykelly bombing as well. These events serve to remind us of the callous, evil and despicable nature of the violence that was carried out against the people of Northern Ireland and against the security forces.
	It is worth remembering what happened in Enniskillen in 1987. One of those who was killed was a close personal friend of mine. Enniskillen is the town where I grew up and went to school, and I knew many of the people who were involved in that incident. The fact that now, 25 years on, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is able to announce the gathering of the world’s leaders for a G8 summit in that same county of Fermanagh is a fantastic illustration of the progress that has been made, and a fantastic vindication of the courage and steadfastness of the ordinary people who stood against the terrorists and were determined that they would not succeed in tearing down the fabric of their society.

Bob Stewart: I should like to pay tribute to the ongoing courage and steadfastness of the people of Northern Ireland, especially the officials there. We do not quite understand how the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen and Ladies who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland live with a certain threat. They have to go outside their house and check their car, for example, and they can never be certain what is going to happen. That tension is there in their lives all the time. I hope that when they come over here, that tension lessens, but the people of Northern Ireland never get rid of it. This House must always understand that the tension remains: we want it to go, but the only way of achieving that is by continuing developments towards peace.

Nigel Dodds: The hon. Gentleman has enormous experience, having served in Northern Ireland. He and his colleagues who served in the armed forces have helped to contribute to bringing about the peaceful circumstances of today. He is right to remind us of the continuing issues that many people, including members of the security forces, have. I shall come on to deal with the issues affecting prison officers in more detail shortly. Members of those forces in our constituencies have come to our offices and have spoken to us about their worries about their personal security. The hon. Gentleman is right that members of the police service and people
	who are connected in any way with the security forces might be seen as some kind of target by these dissident terrorists. We all live daily with these kinds of threats or potential threats. People often say, “Well, there’s no specific intelligence out there to indicate that any particular individual is at risk”, yet we have discovered—we know from the recent tragic events—that that does not necessarily provide any reassurance at all. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments.
	The victims, to whom we referred earlier, continue to live with the scars and wounds of the violence inflicted on them—and they will carry those wounds to their graves. It is important that we never forget the sacrifice of the innocent and the victims and their families and the loved ones left behind.
	Coming on to the issue of personal security, prison officers and their families are living every day with the threat of murder and injury hanging over their heads. During the worst of the violence in the Province, more than two dozen prison officers lost their lives to terrorists. This was a deliberate strategy by republicans and loyalists to win concessions for their prisoners serving time for terrorist-related offences. Just as the murder of those officers was met with widespread and near-universal revulsion in the community in the past, so will this latest attempt to intimidate and suborn the forces of law and order.
	On personal protection for prison officers, police officers and their families, we have some serious concerns about the present personal protection arrangements—the maintenance of protection equipment, for instance, in the homes and other places where members of the security forces have those arrangements in place. The arrangements must be robust enough to ensure the security of those who work in our prisons and in our police service. This is an area in which the Government have a duty to act. The Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State oversee the home protection scheme, which prison and police officers avail themselves of, and it is within their power to ensure that the fullest possible protection is afforded to those officers. I encourage them to do everything in their power in that regard.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that under the special purchase of evacuated dwellings scheme in Northern Ireland—I accept that this is mainly a devolved matter, but it touches on national security issues— we have prison officers, police officers and others who have had to leave their family home and move to alternative accommodation? They are being seriously disadvantaged because the value of their home has reduced significantly, particularly if they purchased it at the height of the property boom. They now face the prospect of losing a lot of money. Should we not be looking to find ways of compensating those people who, through no fault of their own—it was because of a security threat—now find themselves out of their home and facing a substantial loss?

Nigel Dodds: My right hon. Friend raises an important issue, which I know has been raised in the context of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I know that the Minister for Social Development, whose Department administers the SPED scheme in Northern Ireland, has also been looking at this issue. As my right hon. Friend rightly
	pointed out, members of the security forces were told that they had to move. The criteria for qualifying under the SPED scheme have a quite high threshold, so people are granted support only in the most extreme circumstances where their life may be in danger. People often find themselves with negative equity—a problem not of their own creation.
	A wider issue connected with the SPED scheme, about which I have been concerned for some time, is the fact that the money spent on the scheme comes out of the Northern Ireland housing budget. I think that is something that needs to be looked at. SPED is a security-related measure, so it needs to be looked at in that context rather than being seen as a housing issue. The specific matter raised by my right hon. Friend has, I think, been the subject of some discussion between the Minister of Justice, the Chief Constable and the Minister for Social Development. It is certainly an issue that we need to continue to raise on behalf of our constituents.

Jim Shannon: The SPED scheme is clearly intended to help those who are in particular trouble. As a result of the tragic murder of David Black, a number of prison officers from my constituency who were worried about the SPED scheme came to see me. I hope that in the response to this debate the Government will outline how the SPED system can be sped up—how it could work faster, to a time scale that people need. Secondly, can some consideration be given to people who have to move out of their houses quickly—the costs of buying a new house, getting a new mortgage, and so on? Many aspects of the SPED scheme need to be sorted out. Perhaps the Government will give us some response on that today.

Nigel Dodds: My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, as it is a real practical outworking and consequence of the current security situation in Northern Ireland. The issue has not arisen only in the past few weeks or only following the tragic murder of David Black; it has been an issue for some considerable time. People have been told about security issues by the police. As the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, Members of this House have been spoken to about personal security issues. For obvious reasons, we are not going to go into the detail, but these are serious issues. It is entirely wrong that people who qualify under the SPED scheme and find themselves having their house purchased in order to move should face terrible financial consequences, given that their lives are at risk and they find themselves in that position through the fault of terrorists and through no fault whatever of their own.
	I know of a number of prison officers who have been told that they qualify for the Prison Service’s protection scheme and measures but who have been refused other protection offered by the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Executive. There is clearly an issue, and I seek the reassurance of the Secretary of State—I am sure she will be able to give it—that there is no question of resources or money forming any part of any decision to deny any police officer or prison officer the protection that they need to be given under any scheme to ensure their personal security. We would all agree that we should pay tribute to all those who do such sterling service, but it has to go beyond just paying
	tribute to them. When things happen, we should take cognisance of their concerns and as far as possible avert any kind of threat to them. That applies, of course, right across the board.
	The issuing of licences to carry personal protection weapons has been raised with me and other colleagues, along with the refusal to renew those licences for people who have legitimate and well-founded concerns about their personal security. There has been a tendency for that to happen in recent years. A week or two ago, a man came to my office and told me that although he had been informed that he was under threat, his personal protection weapon licence was being withdrawn, which he found incomprehensible. He was told that because he was no longer serving, the threat had been reduced. However, although there is no intelligence relating to him suggesting the existence of a specific threat, he feels that he is under threat and in danger, and has given the example of his neighbour David Black, who was murdered.
	One can understand how that man feels. He has gone through all the proper processes and is now forced to consider legal action, at his own expense, so that he can try to secure the minimal protection that would afford him peace of mind and enable him to sleep in his home at night. The Police Service of Northern Ireland needs to pay close attention to such issues. When appeals are considered by the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and other Ministers have a role to play. I know that the Secretary of State will also pay close attention to those issues, because they are of real concern to people and we have raised them in the past.
	The people of Northern Ireland have suffered for too long as a consequence of the acts of terrorists down the years. Those of us who know our history are aware that the Provisional IRA, which wreaked so much havoc in our country for so many years, started out as a splinter group. It is easy nowadays to dismiss groups that are currently active as “splinter groups”, “small groups” or “micro-groups”, but it should be borne in mind that the Provos originated as a breakaway movement from the official IRA. If we are not to condemn a further generation in Ulster, we must act swiftly and decisively, now, to bring those people to book.
	A short time ago, the Home Secretary announced that the level of threat from dissident republicans here on the mainland of Great Britain had been reduced from “substantial” to “moderate”. In Northern Ireland, it remains “substantial”. At that time, in the House, I expressed the fear of many people that the announcement might have been premature and somewhat counter-productive. I said that given the recent experience of intelligence reports, or the lack of them, people needed to be reassured that there would be no reduction in security, and no complacency on the part of the security forces. I should be grateful if the Secretary of State would tell us whether the Government have sought or received any new assessment in the wake of the murder of David Black, and whether they are satisfied with the current threat level assessment overall.
	Many people seemed surprised by the announcement that the various dissident groups had united to form an umbrella group which styled itself simply “the IRA”. That was the group that claimed responsibility for the murder of David Black. In a speech in September 2010
	entitled “The Threat to National Security”, Jonathan Evans, the director general of the Security Service, noted that the largest dividing lines between the various republican dissident terrorists groups at that time were based on
	“marginal distinctions or personal rivalries”.
	It is now clear to many of us that those marginal distinctions and personal rivalries have, to some extent, ceased to exist, and that the groups are starting to coalesce, which is an extremely serious development. I understand that the “IRA” group which has claimed responsibility for the murder of David Black appears to consist of elements of the Real IRA and other factions based in the Lurgan area, and that is certainly very serious.
	The Secretary of State must conduct a review to establish whether the proscriptions that already apply to the various terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland apply to the newly formed umbrella group. If they do not, the Government must move to apply them without delay. If it is proved that a person is involved in such activity, that person should face the full rigour of the law, and should be in no doubt that he or she will spend a very long time in prison.
	Many inhabitants of Northern Ireland are greatly concerned when they hear of an incident, hear that certain people have been questioned and arrested—and have been continually questioned and arrested in connection with similar offences—and then hear that, unfortunately, they have either been released after a few days, or have not been convicted when brought to trial. Those living in the area in which such people operate, and in Northern Ireland generally, are well aware of the serious threat that is posed.
	Of course we must be conscious of the rule of law and of due process. However, bearing in mind the efforts that are made to remove people from the United Kingdom, here in London or elsewhere, because they pose a threat to national security, many of my constituents ask me what real efforts are being made—proactively as opposed to reactively, following a terrible event—to get to grips with individuals who are known by the police, and indeed by everyone, to be involved in serious acts of terrorism and criminality and the organisation of terrorist acts. That is another issue that the Secretary of State should address.
	The apparent closer organisation of dissident terror groups in Northern Ireland adds greatly to the challenges facing the PSNI and the security forces. All necessary resources must be made available to the Chief Constable to combat the terrorist threat. Early in 2011, the Government announced the provision of an additional £200 million for the PSNI budget to enable the police to counteract the dissident republican terrorist threat, and at the same time the Northern Ireland Executive provided an extra £45 million for security purposes. That money was received very gratefully by the police, and I assure the House that it has been critical to ensuring that more people have not been murdered at the hands of terrorists. However, the police will face a range of challenges in the months ahead. The Chief Constable has expressed concern about what the forthcoming comprehensive spending review will mean for the delivery of front-line policing services. I urge the Government to look favourably on any future request for additional resources, beyond the block grant allocation. The Chief Constable has
	made no call for extra money so far, but the Government should not be surprised if such a call is made in the future.
	The circumstances faced by the police in Northern Ireland are way beyond the day-to-day challenges and problems faced by any regional police force in England, Scotland or Wales. The rate at which officers are leaving the force is higher than expected. The PSNI is losing, through retirement, a great deal of the experience and expertise in key fields such as crime investigation and counter-terrorism that are so crucial in counteracting terrorism. As a consequence of the faster than expected retirement rate, a new recruitment campaign will be launched next year, but it will obviously take time to plug the gaps caused by the loss of senior and experienced officers.
	A judicial review of the use of managed services contracts by the PSNI is currently under way. If it succeeds, it will pose an enormous risk to the capacity of the police service. I believe that binding the hands of the police in such a way risks the incurring of massive costs, perhaps amounting to between £50 million and £60 million a year. The PSNI has been forced to employ agency staff, as a direct result—in my view—of the Patten report, which had the effect of driving years of experience and expertise out of the police service and creating a massive void in talent and skills within the organisation. The Auditor and Comptroller General has acknowledged that the police in Northern Ireland face a major challenge because of a loss of talent which is without precedent in any other public sector body.

Ian Paisley Jnr: As my right hon. Friend knows, increasing numbers of PSNI officers are resigning from the service. That is a trend at present, rather than a spike, but more officers now join and spend just a few years in the service, rather than a lifetime. Instead of dedicating themselves to a career, many of them now get out after a short time. That makes it more difficult for the PSNI to serve the public properly.

Nigel Dodds: I agree. That trend is clear in many of our local areas, even among senior officers. My constituency of Belfast North faces big policing challenges: as well as addressing the security threat, our PSNI officers have to police protests against parades and civil disturbances such as those we saw over the summer. Increasingly, we are seeing senior police officers staying in the area for a relatively short period of time. Just when they have started to get to know the area and its issues and various personalities on all sides they are moved on somewhere else, and a new officer comes in and that process starts all over again.
	Having said that, I pay tribute to our police officers at both senior and rank-and-file level. They do a very good job in very difficult circumstances, but they need to be backed up with the assurance that whatever resources are needed to combat the threat of terrorism will be given to them. They must be assured that they will not have to scrimp and save, because the public in Northern Ireland are entitled to the ordinary benefits of policing as well. Northern Ireland faces serious issues to do with not only the troubles, but drugs, burglary and community policing. Our constituents must not suffer in those regards because resources are diverted to tackle terrorism.

Naomi Long: On the issue of crime in general, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as a consequence of our history of paramilitary activity, racketeering is a particular problem in Northern Ireland, as many people who have moved away from their paramilitary past have not moved away from its associated criminality?

Nigel Dodds: The hon. Lady and I both represent Belfast constituencies, so we know very well the problems that remain. She is right to highlight the link between criminality and people who were formerly heavily engaged in paramilitary activity. That has been an enormous problem. Although many people formerly involved in paramilitary organisations are today making genuine efforts to move their communities forward, unfortunately others try to have a foot in both camps. We must ensure that the full rigour of the law comes down upon those who want to have it both ways, but we should help those who have genuinely changed.
	There is no doubt that the overall security situation is very different now from that 25 years ago. However, although the dark days of the past have gone, it would be reckless to ignore the significant challenges we face. We must therefore debate these matters, as we are doing today. I look forward to hearing from the Secretary of State, and I commend the motion to the House.

Theresa Villiers: It is an honour to follow the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who made a very considered speech in which he set out some of the serious concerns that are felt about security in Northern Ireland. I welcome his emphasis on the positive achievements as well, however, and the steps that have been taken to transform the security situation for the better over recent years.
	I thank the right hon. Gentleman and his Democratic Unionist party colleagues for providing the House with this opportunity to debate what is a very important subject not only for Northern Ireland, but for the entire United Kingdom. Sadly, it is inevitable that our debate this afternoon has been overshadowed by the despicable murder of Prison Officer David Black as he drove to work one morning after 30 years of dedicated service to his community. As the right hon. Gentleman said, that act of brutality serves to remind us all of the continuing threat posed by the individuals who reject the principles of democracy and consent, and instead seek to pursue their aims by violence and murder. In answer to the questions the right hon. Gentleman put to me in his speech, the UK Government’s efforts to combat that terrorist threat remain resolute.
	I know that all Members in the House today will continue to keep the family, friends and colleagues of David Black in our thoughts as they seek to cope with their devastating loss. I join the right hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the dignified and courageous response of Mrs Black. I also want to update the House on the investigation. Of course, I can share few details with colleagues in this public forum, but the news this morning is that two further arrests have been made and searches have been carried out in the Coalisland area. I repeat the appeal I made previously in my statement to the House: anyone with information on this crime or any other terrorist activity in Northern Ireland should come forward and contact the police as a matter of urgency.
	As well as being a personal tragedy, this cowardly murder represents an attack on the wider community. Yet contrary to the ambitions of the so-called dissidents, such attacks serve only to strengthen the determination of the vast majority in all parts of the community to move forward and to see violence and terrorism left behind as part of Northern Ireland’s past, and not its future. I also join the right hon. Gentleman in praising the response of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister who were resolute in their condemnation of Mr Black’s murder. Similar condemnations came from the rest of the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the United States, demonstrating the widespread revulsion at what happened that morning on the M1 motorway. They also demonstrate our unity of purpose in ensuring that these terrorists will never succeed in wrecking the progress that has been made, or in dragging Northern Ireland back to its troubled past.

William McCrea: Does the Secretary of State agree that in acknowledging the tremendous dignity of the Black family in calling on the community to ensure that there be no act of revenge for the murder of David, we must also acknowledge that the family has also demanded that those who perpetrated this act be brought to justice?

Theresa Villiers: I, too, believe that every effort must be made to bring to justice the people responsible for this despicable murder, and I am sure the PSNI is doing everything in its power to ensure that that happens.

Lady Hermon: As the Secretary of State will know, with the murder of David Black, 30 prison officers have now been murdered in Northern Ireland. The Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation has a beautiful memorial garden at police headquarters in Belfast. Please will the Secretary of State support the establishment of a memorial garden for murdered prison officers in Northern Ireland? Organisations including the Prison Officers Association have long campaigned valiantly on this issue, and its chairman, Finlay Spratt, has given sterling leadership. Plans were afoot seven years ago. Such a garden would be a wonderful tribute to David Black and the other prison officers who have been murdered through the years of terrorism. It would be a fit and proper gesture and acknowledgement of the sacrifice made by prison officers through 30 years of terrible events in Northern Ireland.

Theresa Villiers: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that thoughtful suggestion. The Minister of State and I will certainly reflect on it, and I am happy to discuss it with the Northern Ireland Executive.
	The right hon. Member for Belfast North referred to the new grouping that has apparently formed in Northern Ireland from a number of different terrorist groups. My emphasis would be on the fact that however they brand themselves, these groupings are condemned across Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the UK. The numbers involved in dissident activity continue to be small. The dissidents have almost no support, they despise the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland over the past two decades and they act in defiance of the democratically expressed wishes of the
	people of Ireland, north and south, who voted overwhelmingly to back the political settlement we have today. Yet it is all too clear that these disparate groupings can still cause damage and ruin lives.

Ian Paisley Jnr: I am not suggesting, in any way, that the Secretary of State’s words imply any level of complacency about the strength of support in the community for dissident terrorists, but in the last elections dissident republican terrorist candidates achieved 2,000 votes in the two west Belfast wards of the Falls—that is in the heartland of Sinn Fein. We must recognise that if this beast is not dealt with decisively now, it will grow. We saw that in the past with the provisionals, who were small in number but are now the largest republican party—nationalist, constitutional party—in Northern Ireland. It could happen again.

Theresa Villiers: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Government remain vigilant on the terrorist threat; we are taking it extremely seriously. As he will see as my remarks conclude, we believe that tackling the terrorist threat effectively requires not just a security response, but a wider strategy designed to choke off any potential support for the so-called “dissident groupings”. I think there is widespread acceptance that securing a prosperous Northern Ireland and breaking down sectarian barriers is also an important way to respond in order to eliminate the terrorist threat on a long-term basis. As I say, I will come back to that subject later.
	The threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe, meaning that an attack is highly likely. No alteration has been made to that Security Service assessment, although, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North recognised, the threat level in Great Britain has been adjusted. We remain vigilant in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain, because the terrorists have capability and they have lethal intent. This year has seen 22 national security attacks in Northern Ireland. Although some may have lacked sophistication, they all had the potential to be deadly. Many involved crude pipe bombs, primarily used to target PSNI officers or their families. The right hon. Gentleman highlighted an attack in his constituency, and another particularly reckless attack was the abandonment of a large improvised explosive device containing more than 600 lb of home-made explosive near the Irish border at Newry—the device was successfully defused, but if it had detonated, it could have led to a significant loss of life. Terrorists continue to seek access to funding and weaponry, and they have been undertaking training as well as targeting. Both republican and loyalist groupings are still involved in a range of criminal activities—mention has been made of this—to fund their activities and individual lifestyles.

Bob Stewart: Is it possible for my right hon. Friend to say publicly where the main sources of funding for terrorism are coming from?

Theresa Villiers: My hon. Friend will appreciate that there is a limit to what can be said publicly, but there can be no doubt that these criminal activities are playing a significant part in funding terrorist activities.
	The republican and loyalist groupings also continue to carry out paramilitary-style assaults on members of their own community. Such attacks are sickening and show a complete disregard for the victims and their families. Terrorists also seek to capitalise on any instances
	of public disorder or unrest. During rioting in north Belfast on 12 July a number of shots were fired at police officers. That should be considered as nothing less than the attempted murder of police officers, who were there simply to uphold the law and protect people from all parts of the community. I would like to assure the right hon. Member for Belfast North that the PSNI gives the highest priority to protecting the safety of its officers. Indeed, one way in which the £200 million that the UK Government allocated as additional spending to counter the terrorist threat is being deployed is in enabling the PSNI to enhance measures to protect its officers. Measures to protect police officers are, of course, kept under constant review by the PSNI. The Chief Constable takes all the steps he can to protect his officers from the terror threat they face, while retaining his firm commitment to community policing.
	The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the importance of the home protection scheme. As he said, the Northern Ireland Office has important responsibilities in relation to the scheme, and we keep those under constant review, too. Our scheme exists to protect people in certain occupations or positions in public life who are assessed to be under “substantial” or “severe” threat. The Minister of State considers other applications where an individual is assessed to be under a real or immediate threat, under our obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights. The PSNI also runs the criminal threats scheme and home security aid scheme, in addition to the Northern Ireland Office’s programme. A range of security measures are provided depending on the threat in each case—I am afraid that it would not be appropriate for me to go into detail.

Jim Shannon: Intelligence does not always specifically target the correct person; sometimes it does not target the person who has been the subject of a murder attempt or indeed the person who has been murdered. People have come to my office who did not have a specific threat yet travel the same road where people have been murdered or where a murder attempt has been made. Is there not sometimes a need for more flexibility in the system when it comes to assessing not only someone’s individual circumstances, but whether to issue a protection weapon?

Theresa Villiers: Of course in all these cases it is important to look at individual circumstances, and I recommend to anyone who considers that they are under threat that they approach the PSNI about the matter to see what mitigation steps can be taken.
	PSNI officers remain the repeated focus of dissident attack planning, with prison officers targeted as well. Terrorist groupings have continued to use hoax devices, acts of criminal damage or orchestrated disorder to create fear in the community and to draw police into situations where they might be vulnerable to attack. That tactic is designed to make it harder for the PSNI to provide community-style policing. It is also, bluntly, aimed at deterring people from joining the police, particularly those from the Catholic community. Yet we should recognise that confidence levels in policing across Northern Ireland have actually risen steadily. Chief Constable Matt Baggott continues to place community policing at the heart of his approach, and the proportion of Catholics in the PSNI has gone up from 8% in 2001 to more than 30% today. The PSNI is genuinely
	representative of the community it serves, it is one of the most transparent and rigorously scrutinised police services in the world, and I believe that it has the confidence of a significant majority of the people of Northern Ireland. I pay the fullest tribute to the work that Matt Baggott and his officers do in exceptionally difficult circumstances. They carry out their duties with professionalism, impartiality and bravery—that is also true of the Prison Service.

Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking yet another intervention. She quite rightly mentioned the additional resources given to the Chief Constable, Matt Baggott, and to the PSNI. We are absolutely thrilled that next year the G8 summit will come to Fermanagh. That is not in my constituency, however—could the summit come to North Down next time? Although we are thrilled about that, will the Secretary of State confirm—to the relief of us all—that additional resources will be made available to the PSNI for the increased security commitment? I am sure that the PSNI will deliver on that commitment to the best of its ability, but it needs finance to do so.

Theresa Villiers: We are committed to ensuring that the policing and security operation for the G8 summit is a success. Of course, appropriate resources will be allocated and we will make an announcement in due course, probably in January, about the budget.
	As I have said, Prison Service officers also carry out their duties with dedication and courage and I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the work they do. They play a vital role in keeping people in Northern Ireland safe from harm and the Northern Ireland Prison Service keeps arrangements for the personal security of its officers under constant review. The director general of the service, Sue McAllister, is actively considering what further measures might need to be taken in the wake of the attack on David Black and the PSNI has a programme of security briefings under way for prison officers.

Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and I apologise for not being in the Chamber from the start of the debate. She explained to the House how she and her colleague the Minister of State have responsibility for the home protection scheme. She is now discussing measures to be taken by the Prison Service and has mentioned measures to be taken by the Police Service, and following devolution they are the responsibility of the Justice Minister and the various agencies. Will she reassure the House that, although the responsibilities are separate, every effort is being made to ensure that the effectiveness of all the measures is joined together wherever possible?

Theresa Villiers: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I emphasise that working relationships between the Northern Ireland Office and the Justice Minister are very close and I discuss these matters with David Ford regularly, as well as with the Chief Constable. As the right hon. Gentleman said, a united effort that co-ordinates our respective areas of responsibility is crucial in combating terrorism. I have held a number of discussions about the David Black murder with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, and the Minister of State has been in discussions with the Prison Service, too.
	The SPED scheme has been mentioned. It falls within the devolved space but I am happy to pass on the comments made today to the responsible Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. I am sure that they will wish to reflect carefully on the comments that have been made and I am sure that they take their responsibilities in this matter very seriously.
	Personal protection weapons were also mentioned. Issuing or withdrawing personal protection is a matter for the Chief Constable, as the matter is devolved, and the only NIO involvement is when someone appeals against a decision made by the Chief Constable. The director general of the Prison Service met the PSNI recently to ensure that any prison officer who feels they need a PPW can apply to the police under the normal procedures. Following concerns raised after the murder of David Black, Sue McAllister said:
	“I have checked and to my knowledge no prison officer has been told that his or her personal protection weapon is to be withdrawn”.
	She went on to say:
	“I will certainly be making sure that any prison officer who wishes to have a personal protection weapon will be able to apply to the police service as per our procedures.”

David Simpson: The Secretary of State referred to serving members. Will she also take into consideration those men and women who have served their country faithfully and also deserve to receive personal protection weapons in some shape or form?

Theresa Villiers: I am certain that in making decisions on personal protection weapons, the PSNI will have careful regard to the security issues relating to not just present members of the Prison Service but to former members. I am confident that we have a process that is rigorous in assessing those risks and I am sure that they are taken into account by the PSNI. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will also consider them in the appeals process.

Bob Stewart: May I remind the House that it is not just about police officers and prison officers? Sometimes people work more indirectly for the Prison Service or military; they might be a civilian driver, educate the children of people who work there or provide a service, such as cleaning an establishment. Those people are under threat, too, more often than we realise.

Theresa Villiers: I am confident that the PSNI will carefully consider the risks associated with anyone who applies for permission to have a personal protection weapon, whether they carry out the roles described by my hon. Friend or are involved directly in the Prison Service or PSNI.

Patrick Mercer: I apologise to the House for not being in the Chamber earlier. I do not need to talk further on the subject of weapons in this company, but I believe that many of my former RUC colleagues feel that it is only a matter of time before the PSNI is outgunned by one set of dissidents or another. Does the Secretary of State feel that she has access to enough military resources that can be quickly deployed in the Province?

Theresa Villiers: The PSNI has been very clear that it has the resources it needs to combat the terrorist threat, which includes certain technical support from the military.
	For our part, the Government are determined to everything we can to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure. On coming to power we endorsed an additional £50 million for the PSNI. In 2010, our national security strategy included countering Northern Ireland-related terrorism as a tier 1 priority and, as we have heard, an additional £200 million over four years was provided to the PSNI to tackle the threat from terrorism.
	The right hon. Member for Belfast North asked what will happen at the end of the period covered by that funding settlement. Those are matters for the forthcoming spending review, but the Government will continue to do all we can to support the PSNI and its partners in their efforts to tackle the terrorist threat. I am sure the points made in the debate today will be carefully considered when decisions are made on future spending reviews.

Jim Shannon: My right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) made a very specific point about the SPED scheme moneys being drawn out of the Department for Social Development’s money. The specific issue affects Northern Ireland, but the security of Northern Ireland is a matter not just for Northern Ireland but for the whole United Kingdom. Will the right hon. Lady consider providing extra funding for the DSD in Northern Ireland to cover the movement of people from house to house through the SPED scheme?

Theresa Villiers: I am sure that when decisions are ultimately taken on the Northern Ireland block grant and future spending reviews, appropriate consideration will be given to the security situation in Northern Ireland.
	Ministers and security advisers meet regularly to review our counter-terrorism strategy and to ensure that everything that can be done is being done. Although the threat level remains at severe in Northern Ireland, real progress has been made. Excellent co-operation between the PSNI and its partners has put the terrorists under strain in recent months. There have been significant arrests, charges and convictions. In fact, so far this year there have been a total of 143 arrests in Northern Ireland, in addition to a number by An Garda Siochana in the Republic of Ireland. There have also been 52 charges against those involved in national security attacks brought since January 2012, including a number for serious terrorism-related offences. In addition, 25 caches of weapons and improvised explosive devices have been seized.
	We remain committed to supporting the PSNI, its partners and Justice Minister David Ford in countering the threat and preventing the so-called dissidents from causing death and destruction. I regularly meet the Tanaiste and the Irish Minister of Justice and discuss these matters, and I am in no doubt that the Irish Government and their Police Service remain fully committed to tackling terrorism. The relationship between An Garda Siochana and the PSNI is better than ever and it continues to save lives.
	As for the question asked by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) on the disclosures about commissioning, she will be aware that the body that carried out the decommissioning process was an
	independent one. It chose not to publish the inventory of its work, so the Government do not actually have the information to which she referred.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I was involved in the negotiations leading to the Belfast agreement, and in the legislative process here in Parliament. The Government have a statutory duty in relation to decommissioning. The legislation made provision for the publication of an inventory of the weapons that had been decommissioned at the end of the process, so I do not think the Secretary of State can simply evade the issue by saying that the commission was independent. The commission had legislative force from this Parliament and surely, therefore, there is an issue of accountability.

Theresa Villiers: I am happy to look at the matter that the right hon. Gentleman raised and discuss it further with him.
	We are resolutely determined to bring an end to the senseless violence that can still cause such pain and loss in Northern Ireland, but as I said earlier, security measures alone will not bring an end to terrorist activity, although of course they remain essential. We also need to build a more prosperous and less divided society if we are finally to force out those violent groupings completely. Northern Ireland still faces many serious economic and social challenges after the troubles. We need to continue efforts to rebalance the economy and revive the private sector, and we must tackle sectarianism and the causes of division in society, which can fuel the discontent on which terrorists will try to capitalise.
	Addressing ongoing community segregation is not just a social and political priority; it is a security priority as well. That is one of the reasons why, in his speech to the Assembly last year, the Prime Minister emphasised the crucial importance of building a genuinely shared future for Northern Ireland. The UK Government remain committed to working closely with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive in their efforts to deliver that shared society.
	However, we must not forget how far Northern Ireland has come since the dark days of the troubles. As rightly highlighted by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, we have unprecedented political stability. For the most part, people go about their daily lives in a way that would have been unthinkable in the past; and in so many ways Northern Ireland is now projecting itself on the world stage for the right reasons.
	This year we have seen Northern Ireland host the Irish golf open, the Olympic torch relay, the Titanic centenary events and, of course, the fantastically successful visit by Her Majesty the Queen. Next year will see the world police and fire games bring more than 20,000 competitors and spectators to Northern Ireland. Derry-Londonderry will be the UK city of culture. It will host the Fleadh which is being held in Northern Ireland for the first time. Also, as we have heard, it is now officially, according to “Lonely Planet”, the fourth best city in the world to visit.
	As announced yesterday by the Prime Minister, the Government are recognising once again the transformation that has taken place in Northern Ireland by bringing the leaders of eight of the world’s largest economies to County Fermanagh. County Fermanagh will genuinely be the centre of the world in
	June next year. The G8 conference will showcase Northern Ireland as an inspirational setting for world leaders to discuss ambitious solutions to pressing global problems. As the First Minister said yesterday, that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. It demonstrates a modern, confident, forward-looking Northern Ireland.
	This Government in no way underestimate the severity of the ongoing security threat. We remain vigilant. The House should be in no doubt that we will do everything we can to protect the people of our country from terrorism; and we will continue to support the PSNI, the Executive and the community in ensuring that the terrorists do not succeed in their aims. The people of Northern Ireland have achieved so much over the past 20 years and they are determined to continue the hard-won progress that has been made. The overwhelming majority stand by the principle that Northern Ireland’s future will only ever be determined by democracy and by consent, and not by violence. The Government will continue to be vigilant in combating the terrorist threat as an essential part of our wider efforts to deliver a peaceful, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland, of which all its citizens can be proud and in which everyone has a genuinely shared future.

Vernon Coaker: I congratulate the Democratic Unionist party on bringing these important matters before the House today; I commend the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for the very measured way in which he introduced the debate, and I thank the Secretary of State for her remarks.
	Northern Ireland’s security and stability affect and are the responsibility of every Member of Parliament, from every party and every part of the United Kingdom. Yesterday’s announcement that the G8 summit is coming to Northern Ireland next year is very welcome news for everyone in Northern Ireland. Fermanagh, which I know is close to the heart of the right hon. Member for Belfast North, is a beautiful county, which I have been privileged to visit. I was last in Enniskillen for the church service at St Macartin’s cathedral on the occasion of Her Majesty the Queen’s visit to Northern Ireland to mark the diamond jubilee. But of course we also remember the horrific Remembrance Sunday killings of 25 years ago. I have also spent time in Fermanagh visiting community groups and businesses, including the Fermanagh Trust which does such good work to promote shared education in the county.
	The announcement that this hugely significant event, attended by eight world leaders, will be held in Northern Ireland is proof indeed that things have changed considerably for the better. Only a short number of years ago, it would have been unthinkable that an occasion of this significance, with all its security implications, could be held in Northern Ireland. Indeed the Prime Minister, at Prime Minister’s questions today, made that very point. Given that Derry-Londonderry is also to be the city of culture next year, I firmly believe, as the Secretary of State and the right hon. Gentleman said, that 2013 can be a great year of tourism, investment and togetherness for a vibrant and confident Northern Ireland taking its place on the world stage. A huge amount of progress has thus been made, as we and the Secretary of State recognise.
	However, as the motion rightly identifies, there are still those who wish to destroy the peace and progress made and take us back to the dark days of conflict. The murder of Prison Officer David Black just a few weeks ago is a stark reminder of the need for us to be vigilant and realistic about the threat from terrorism. As I said in the House of Commons in the days afterwards, it was the cold-blooded, evil murder of an ordinary, decent man, going about his ordinary, decent business.
	I, and some Members who are present in the Chamber this afternoon, stood with many other ordinary, decent people in Cookstown for David Black’s funeral—the Secretary of State was there as well—and was overwhelmed by the courage and determination of his family, and by what his very proud children said at his funeral. They showed that those who murdered a husband, a father and a friend did not succeed and will not succeed. It was good to hear from the Secretary of State this afternoon that there have been further arrests by the PSNI, and that the police have taken other action, including searching properties. That is very welcome news to all of us, I think, as we would all wish to see the perpetrators brought to justice as soon as possible.
	We must not, however, think that sentiments alone will ensure that no other family is bereaved and no other home, as the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly said that day, has an empty chair and a loved one gone. There can be no complacency about the threat from the small number of people engaged in violence, and there must be total support—financial and political—from both sides of the House to help the security forces in Northern Ireland to keep the people safe. Will the Minister in his closing remarks again assure the House that those protecting the public, particularly the PSNI, the Army technical officers and the security services, have all the resources needed to tackle terrorism and the threat to national security?
	Unfortunately, David Black’s murder was not an isolated incident, as the Secretary of State said. It was part of a pattern of dissident republican terrorist activity across Northern Ireland, targeted primarily at the security forces. A gun attack on police took place in west Belfast at the end of July; two pipe bombs and a booby-trap device were left at the offices of Derry city council in September; mortar bombs were found in north Belfast in October; then, just last week, what is believed to be an under-car bomb was found in Belfast, having fallen off the vehicle of the intended target. Loyalist paramilitaries are also engaged in creating discord within and between communities: their involvement in some of the public disorder seen in Belfast this summer and continuing sectarian attacks and criminal behaviour must also be condemned and challenged robustly.
	In both working-class Unionist and working-class nationalist areas, joblessness among young people is a real concern, and the Secretary of State mentioned this. Not only does it damage our young people by denying them work, opportunity and aspiration, but it makes them vulnerable to exploitation and indeed recruitment by paramilitaries. We should never underestimate the impact on the security situation of unemployment and social and economic deprivation. Only rarely does any of this make the news here in London, but it is happening and we in Westminster have a duty to take note and to
	act to deal with it. That is why I so warmly welcome the topic the right hon. Member for Belfast North has brought to the House for debate today.
	I believe, as do the Secretary of State and all Members of this House, that the PSNI is to be congratulated on its diligence and success in preventing attacks and catching the perpetrators. The Army technical officers in the bomb disposal units also deserve huge credit for their bravery and tenacity in dealing with suspect devices. Prosecutions relating to terrorist activity have continued, but the risk to police officers, prison officers, soldiers and the entire community remains very real.
	Responding to remarks I made in the House earlier this month, the Secretary of State said:
	“the PSNI is completely focused on maintaining the safety of prison officers, as it is on maintaining the safety of police officers, who are sadly also targeted by dissident terrorists. I am sure that every lesson will be learned, and that the PSNI and the Prison Service will look with care at whether any changes need to be made as a result of yesterday’s tragedy.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2012; Vol. 552, c. 513.]

Lady Hermon: I am following closely the comments being made by the shadow Secretary of State. Will he take a moment to support publicly the calls we have heard from this Bench this afternoon for the publication by the Government of the inventories of weapons already decommissioned by republicans and by loyalists, as agreed under the Belfast agreement? To hide behind the independence of the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning simply will not do. Will the hon. Gentleman please publicly endorse those calls for publication?

Vernon Coaker: Because of the way the hon. Lady has pursued the matter and raised it in this debate, she has already got a commitment from the Secretary of State to consider her request and to see whether anything more needs to be done. The hon. Lady had mentioned the publication of inventories several times this afternoon and the Secretary of State has—rightly, I believe—given a commitment to see whether anything further can be done to ensure that the weapons and other materiél that are said to have been destroyed actually have been. I am sure the House welcomes the Secretary of State’s commitment.
	May I ask the Minister of State, who is to reply to the debate, what his assessment is of the lessons that have been learnt and whether any changes are needed to ensure the highest levels of personal security for police officers, civilian police staff and Prison Service personnel? The Police Federation for Northern Ireland says that there have been 73 gun or bomb attacks since the start of this year—a startling and worrying figure—and last week its chairman, Terry Spence, said that 1,000 more officers were needed to combat what he described as a growing threat and to stop us “sleepwalking into disaster”. Following the previous Administration’s commitment, in 2010 this Government gave the police an extra £200 million, to be spread over the following four years, specifically to combat terrorism; and the Executive have provided £45 million for the same purpose. I know that, like me, the Minister of State has regular discussions with the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland and the Chief Constable. What representations has he received regarding the extension of that funding beyond 2014?
	What is his assessment of the call for additional police officers to meet the national security threat outlined by the PFNI chairman?
	I know that there is ever-closer co-operation between the Irish Government and the UK Government, and between the Garda Siochana and the PSNI. The support of the Irish authorities in tackling terrorism is hugely important, and I commend in particular the Tanaiste, the Irish Justice Minister and the Garda commissioner for their hard work and determination. We all want that to continue.

Laurence Robertson: On the day of the terrible murder of Mr Black, I was in Dublin and met the Garda commissioner, who reaffirmed his commitment to working with the PSNI to stamp out such action. There was an air of despondency around everyone I met in Dublin that tragic day. They really do stand with us in fighting against such incidents.

Vernon Coaker: The remarks of the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee are welcome and will be heard clearly both here and in Dublin. I am sure that everyone across the whole Republic of Ireland, the whole of Northern Ireland and, let us be clear, the whole United Kingdom, was absolutely horrified by the murder and supports all the efforts of the Government, the parties in Northern Ireland and the police and security services in the Republic and Northern Ireland to bring to justice those who committed that terrible crime.
	In my first exchange across the Dispatch Box with the Secretary of State, during Northern Ireland questions on 24 October, I said that I wanted
	“to work with her constructively and in a bipartisan way, particularly on issues relating to security.”
	I asked her to
	“assure the House and the people of Northern Ireland that there will be no downgrading of the Government’s commitment to combat terrorism anywhere in the United Kingdom”.—[Official Report, 24 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 907.]
	The Secretary of State has reaffirmed that commitment and needs to do so constantly, because, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North said, any suggestion of a downgrading must be combated. I reaffirm my commitment to maintaining a bipartisan approach, to working with the Government on security matters, and to supporting the Northern Ireland Executive, the Justice Minister and the PSNI. This afternoon’s debate gives us the opportunity, here in Westminster, to say that tackling terrorism, wherever and whenever it occurs, should remain the responsibility and priority of us all.

Stephen Lloyd: I pay tribute to the Democratic Unionist party and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for securing this Opposition day debate. I know that many colleagues in parties on the other side of the Chamber have far more expertise and experience than I have and that they want to speak, so I will be brief.
	I join the Secretary of State and the others who have spoken so far in paying tribute to Mr David Black. His murder was a heinous crime, which calls to mind the dreadful situation many years ago, of which I have some experience. One of my uncles was a
	police officer; the IRA attempted to assassinate him and once actually came to his house. Fortuitously, neither the children—my cousins—nor my uncle and aunt were harmed, but it was an absolutely desperate situation. I remember so well what it was like all those years ago. Things have moved on apace, almost miraculously. I still visit my relatives in Northern Ireland and it is a very different place from what it was many years ago.
	The security issue, however, is clearly still relevant, as the crime against Mr Black only a few weeks ago demonstrates. Periodically, dissident groups materialise suddenly and cause mayhem by harming, frightening and intimidating people, and, to be frank, some of the loyalist dissident groups almost have a racketeering contract over parts of the north. Things are not yet quite where we want them to be, but I want to affirm and confirm just how far they have come.
	I remember being in Belfast when the troubles started. I was only 12 and, as hon. Members will be able to imagine, as a young child I thought it was very exciting. There were helicopters everywhere, guns going off and lots of noise, but it did not take me long to realise just what a dreadfully black period the whole country was going to go through. The situation now compared with then is almost miraculous. It is tremendous that it has advanced to the extent that, today, all sides in Northern Ireland, where a difficult sectarian divide involved a lot of death and pain, are sought out by other countries around the world to help them get through similarly difficult situations. That is a tribute to all the people of the north and to the UK Government for the progress that we have made.
	It is striking that a number of Northern Ireland Members have reminded us of the ongoing threat, to the extent that people have had to move house. I urge the Government to keep focused on two things, along with everything else. First, there must never be any cuts in the budget, so that ample money is available to ensure that people who work in the public security services—whether they work in prisons, the police or similar—are protected in their own homes in the north. Secondly, and equally—this strong point has already been made—if they are forced out of their own homes, which is dreadful, they should not suffer financially, because that seems completely against the whole concept of natural justice. As a spokesperson for my party within the coalition, I add my wholehearted support to what has already been said on that issue. It is important that the Government keep focused.
	The security angle is complicated and I know that the Government are working very closely with the devolved Government in Northern Ireland. This issue clearly is not going to go away any time soon, but I remind hon. Members—not that I have to remind Northern Ireland Members—that we are in such a different place compared with 20 years ago. If we ever allow the dissident groups, of whatever stripe, to force us into a defensive posture, that tiny percentage of people will have won. I do not think that they are worth it—they are not worth a hill of beans. We need to deal with them firmly, ensure that the security capacity is there, and keep doing what I know the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want, which is to keep going forward towards a very secure future.

Gregory Campbell: I rise in support of my honourable colleagues and this important motion. I want to tread the same fine line as previous contributors and outline the significant and beneficial progress that has been made in Northern Ireland in recent years, while balancing it with the need not to become complacent. Unfortunately, we have seen in recent days and weeks the ramifications of what happens whenever dissident terrorists are able to carry out their dastardly objectives.
	The progress that has been made has been alluded to during Prime Minister’s questions today and in other locations recently. It is remarkable—there is absolutely no question about that. In 2012, there are many villages and towns in Northern Ireland where there is no discernible evidence of violence, dissention or trouble at all—none whatsoever. Unfortunately, however, as has been said, the capacity of dissident terrorists—who now come under the umbrella of the IRA—to carry out their activities cannot and must not be underestimated. The fact that those terrorists have carried out six or seven gun or bomb attacks each and every month of this year is evidence of their capacity.
	The Chief Constable has said that the terrorists do not have the capacity for a sustained campaign. They are not in the same category as the Provisional IRA and it appears at present that they are not even intent on a sustained level of bombing and shooting on every day of every week of every month, for a number of reasons. They do not have the manpower—or the woman-power either—or the expertise, although they are gaining in that regard. What they are doing, however—unfortunately, Mr David Black and his family were at the receiving end of their capacity—is allowing a week, a fortnight or a month to go by and then hitting a target that they know will get a headline and generate adverse publicity. For example, they are aware that Londonderry will be the first ever UK city of culture next year, which is why they targeted the cultural offices in the city of Londonderry. They knew that that would get a headline of some magnitude.
	In treading the fine line between the significant progress that has been made, which we must not underestimate, and the need to ensure that vigilance remains the watchword, I want to draw attention to the benefit that we will gain, I hope, over the next 12 months and, at the same time, ensure that the Secretary of State, the Government and the security forces at home remain vigilant to ensure that people are able to enjoy the many occasions that will come our way over the next 12 months.
	Let us consider those occasions for a moment. The G8 has been announced and we congratulate the Prime Minister on, and thank him for, his work in delivering it. There will be an unprecedented arrival of people in, and attention on, Northern Ireland for all the good reasons. People will come to Fermanagh and there will be intense publicity not just for the three days that they are there, but for the weeks that lead up to it and, I hope, subsequent to their departure. That has to be and must be a force for good, and yet there is the potential—just as dissidents have targeted other occasions that were a force for good—for the dissidents’ force for evil. They will undoubtedly be looking at ways to undermine that significantly beneficial event for Northern Ireland, so we must be aware of their capacity to do so.
	The Secretary of State has alluded to the world police and fire games, which will also be held in Northern Ireland next year. The potential significant benefits for tourism and inward investment as the result of many thousands of people—both participants and spectators—coming to Northern Ireland and enjoying their stay should not be underestimated. Again, dissidents will want to target that event. We cannot rest on our laurels and just think that the police will deal with any problems. Unfortunately, we must prepare for the possibility that dissidents may want to disrupt these events.
	I have alluded to Londonderry being the first ever UK city of culture. There will be a whole sequence of events, starting in six weeks’ time and running throughout next year. Again, dissidents will see the opportunity to target those events. They will pick and choose the events that they want to disrupt. Thankfully, their attempts in recent months have failed, but trying and failing in the past has not deterred them from repetition. They will undoubtedly attempt to cause disruption again.
	Over the next 12 to 18 months, Northern Ireland could see as much transformation again as it has seen over the past 20 years, provided that we take the necessary action to ensure that those who are intent on disrupting these events are not allowed to do so, and provided that the community rallies behind all the events, gives them total support and ensures that there is no hiding place for anyone who tries to disrupt them or attack the participants. Last year, when the Olympic torch made its way across the United Kingdom, the only location where it suffered a minor re-routeing was Londonderry. That was at the hands of several dozen dissident political protesters. There was no violence, but there were negative headlines because they targeted an event that everyone else thought was tremendous and that thousands of people were there to support. We must confront that kind of attitude over the next 14 months.
	The shadow Secretary of State made an important point about unemployment, particularly among young people. Just like the Provisional IRA before them, the dissident elements are undoubtedly targeting young people who are unemployed and saying to them, “The peace process has brought you nothing. It has not benefited you with employment, in getting you out of the ghetto or in improving your lifestyle or standard of living. Therefore, join us in trying to finish the job that the provos started but could not finish.” That is the message that the dissidents sell, in different ways, to young people who are unemployed and who, in many cases, are following generations of unemployment.
	I therefore encourage other Members to follow the avenue that I will be pursuing next week with Invest Northern Ireland, the Department for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland, the Prince’s Trust and others. We are targeting unemployed young people and giving them the information on the training, skills and adaptability that they need to get into employment, so that they do not become fodder for the dissident elements that are, unfortunately, targeting our young people.
	I want to close with the issue of personal protection weapons and the home protection scheme, which has been alluded to by a number of Members. David Black was not under any specific individual threat on his life. He died as a result of the dissident terrorists targeting him none the less. The day, the week and the month before that fateful day when he was making his journey
	along the motorway, he did not believe that he was under threat any more than many of his colleagues. I say that not to diminish the threat that he thought he was under, but to point out that he was told that he was under no specific individual threat.
	That means that there are hundreds of serving and former members of the police, the prison service, the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment who, because of where they live and because of their job, feel themselves to be under a certain kind of threat. I encourage the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and others to do whatever they can to ensure that those personnel have adequate protection, in the form of both personal protection weapons and the home protection scheme, so that they and their families have some form of security. They need to know that the Government and the rest of us understand the threat that they are under and will do what we can to help them in their hour of need.

David Simpson: It is good to follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell).
	The recent murder of prison officer David Black presents us with a stark warning that we cannot ignore. It shows that although society in Northern Ireland is moving forward, peace and stability are fragile commodities that need to be protected from dangerous people who go about with murder in their hearts. We cannot take our security for granted in any corner of this United Kingdom; nor can we assume that the threat of republican terrorism has passed completely into the history books.
	Personal protection weapons and the assessment of risk have been raised a number of times today. I believe that there is an issue with how assessments are made that needs to be addressed by the security forces or through the Northern Ireland Office. I would like the Secretary of State to take that on board.
	My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry referred to David Black. David Black was murdered in my constituency. I pay tribute to his family and to his wife for her courageous statement about no retaliation. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, they also said that they wanted the perpetrators to be brought to justice to pay for their crime. As I said earlier, while we are genuine in our tributes to him and his family, there is an empty chair that will never be filled, so we must get to grips with the matter.
	I believe that a different line must be taken in the assessments on serving officers in the Prison Service and the other security forces, and on those who have served the community and put on the uniform of the Crown forces for a long time. Time and again, prison officers and people from the security forces come to my office. The letters that they receive state continually: “Our assessment on you is moderate.” What does that mean? There was no specific intelligence on David Black. There was no specific intelligence on Constable Stephen Carroll, who was also murdered in my constituency. But their lives were taken.
	We need to address this issue. The Government need to realise that we are dealing with human lives. We are dealing with people who have to go out in the morning
	to do a day’s work and who are looking over their shoulder. All of us on these Benches live with that every day. People will say that we are well paid for it, and perhaps we are. However, there are people out there who get up in the morning, leave their families and go out to check their vehicles. The word for the problem is complacency. We all get lax when nothing has happened for a while, and we do not check under our vehicles or look over our shoulders as we should. That happens, but some day it will be too late—there will be a device and it will all be over.

Jim Shannon: My hon. Friend will be aware of the targeting of security force personnel, whether in the police, Army or Prison Service. Is he also aware of the announcement that the name and address of every prison officer was known to dissident republicans, and does he feel that security for everyone who serves in uniform needs to be upgraded and stepped up?

David Simpson: Yes, and over the years we have been made aware of security leaks, and documents relating to members of the security forces have been found in the possession of certain people. People have been arrested because material has been found that could be of advantage to terrorist organisations. We must be vigilant and ensure consistent upgrading and assessment of all those issues, and I ask the Secretary of State to keep that in mind. I do not totally blame the Northern Ireland Office for the situation; the PSNI of course has responsibility for making an assessment. People should not just be dealt with as being under moderate threat, when all of a sudden their lives are taken. As has been said, David Black was driving down the motorway outside Lurgan in my constituency. He was on his way to help his country by serving in the Prison Service, and to earn a living for his wife and family. He did not return. We must address urgently the issue of how people’s protection is assessed.
	On a more positive note, no one in this House, or anywhere in Northern Ireland, would deny that Northern Ireland has made remarkable progress in recent times. This has been a fantastic year for our Province, and the announcement yesterday that Ulster will host the G8 summit next year was the crowning glory in an incredible period of positive headlines. I thank the Secretary of State for attending my constituency yesterday—of course, she brought the Prime Minster with her—and it was good of her to be there to make an announcement about the G8. I am sure she will agree that the warm reception that both she and the Prime Minister received from the NACCO work force in the Craigavon area was tremendous. It was a positive day for my constituency, for Northern Ireland and for NACCO, which had its tweets all ready. They were not allowed to go because of security issues, but I assure the Secretary of State that the moment the Prime Minister left, wires were hot across the whole world to promote that company and the Craigavon area.
	This year has been an excellent show case for all that is good about Northern Ireland. No longer is our part of the United Kingdom referred to in the same breath as Palestine or other trouble spots in the world, and the Province is receiving global recognition for the right reasons. That success has been built on the sure foundation of support for the rule of law
	among all those who carry the responsibility of political leadership. People who once swore that they would never support the police or the rule of law, now do so.

Nigel Dodds: My hon. Friend makes an important point about support for policing. Does he share my concern, and that of many others, about the recent developments following an arrest made under proper policing processes, when Sinn Fein organised a protest outside police headquarters and accused the PSNI of “political policing”? Does my hon. Friend believe, as I do, that that retrograde and dangerous step plays into the hands of dissidents?

David Simpson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention; he is absolutely correct. Such events send out the wrong message and seem to give support to dissident republicans which, as was mentioned earlier, encourages young people to believe that the war is not really over. In the words of one famous republican, “We haven’t gone away you know.” We must remember that.

William McCrea: Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that a dangerous precedent has been set by members of Sinn Fein and the SDLP on Dungannon and South Tyrone council? A person has gone through the due process of the law as a result of an action to murder a member of the DUP—Councillor Sammy Brush—yet now we find that their release is being demanded.

David Simpson: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. In fact, he must have seen my speech—[ Interruption. ] He probably thought he wrote it for me. He is right to say that the call from the SDLP is despicable, and I will soon refer to that case in my speech.
	A generation of young people are emerging in Northern Ireland for whom the worst days of the troubles are something they hear their parents talk about at the fireside. Mercifully, these young people have no real first-hand experience of such things themselves. I welcome that changed dispensation and the fact that our society has become less accustomed to violence and less accepting of it than during the dark days. At stake, however, is the maintenance of peace and prosperity for all of our people.
	I pay tribute to Kate Carroll, the wife of Constable Stephen Carroll who was murdered in my constituency. She is a very brave lady and I understand that in January next year she will launch in Stormont buildings an initiative for disfranchised young people. My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry referred to young people who are unemployed and find themselves in difficult circumstances, and Kate Carroll is bringing forward an initiative that will help such people to find work, get involved in youth projects, and remove them from the scene and criminal activity, and from the leeches that try to tap into their lives and take them away. I pay tribute to Kate Carroll; she is a brave lady who has been outspoken on many issues and come a long way since the death of her husband. She should be congratulated on that.
	There was a time in Northern Ireland when a person’s losing their life as a consequence of terrorism was sometimes read out on news broadcasts with the tiresome
	repetition of the weather forecast or the market report. Those terrible times are gone, except for a tiny, crazed element that seeks to take us backwards. That element does exist, and we learn from the past that if it is not confronted, it will persist. It is a sign of how far forward we have moved as a society that the community, right across the traditional divides, was genuinely convulsed in shock by the recent murder of David Black. People who lived through the dark days do not want to go back to them, and their children do not want to endure what their parents had to endure. We must not let our people down through a weak response to that grave threat. We must have peace, but it can only be guaranteed through strength.
	Peace will be preserved in our country only if those who threaten its continuation are confronted and harried at every opportunity by the legitimate forces of law and order. My point again to the Secretary of State is that we need to provide any resources that are needed. We need to take those people on, defeat them and remove them from our society. We need to remove their political ideology—or whatever ideology—to try to bring them to their knees. Republicans tried for many years in Northern Ireland, but they found that the people of Ulster are very resilient, despite all that was thrown at them over the years. The people of Northern Ireland did not give in to the Provisional IRA, and I can assure the House that they will not give in to any so-called dissident republicans. They will continue to fight and continue to remain members of this United Kingdom no matter what is thrown at them.
	The latest incarnation of republican terrorism considers itself to be the keeper of an old republican flame—the armed struggle. Those people believe that, if they can keep alive the twisted tradition of anti-democratic violence, it will eventually burn as strongly as it did in the past. The psychopathic delusion required to sustain such a nightmare vision ignores the pain and suffering that would be inflicted on the wider community were it ever to become a reality. It can never be allowed to become a reality. Too many people have suffered as a consequence of politically motivated violence. It is essential that the Government do all in their power to defeat those who would seek to reignite the flames of division and bloodshed. Every tool at our disposal should be deployed.
	The news that the disparate and scattered remnants of physical-force republicanism have joined together under a single banner—one local tabloid referred to it yesterday as a coalition, but I will not go into that—shows why the current policy of allowing dissidents to segregate in prisons must be ended. It is beyond dispute that the warnings given in 2003 on where that policy would ultimately lead have been fulfilled. The policy should be reversed, and I hope the Secretary of State joins us in calling for that.
	It is more important now than ever that all democratic parties in Northern Ireland stand together to oppose the dissident agenda. That is why I have found some of the actions of the SDLP very disappointing. I have a lot of respect for many SDLP members, but recent comments have been disappointing. It sends out a mixed and confused message if the leader of the SDLP and his party colleagues campaign for the release of Marian Price and Gerry McGeough. McGeough was convicted by a court of law for the attempted murder of my party colleague, Councillor Sammy Brush. Had Sammy Brush
	not been in possession of a personal weapon, he would have been dead today. He was able to return fire, but he would have been dead had the personal protection weapon not been issued to him.
	It was appalling to hear the leader of the SDLP claim that McGeough has been victimised. It was equally appalling when his party backed a call for McGeough to be released. Let us imagine the scene at Dungannon and South Tyrone borough council on that night: Councillor Brush was sitting in his place in the council chamber while one nationalist speaker after another rose to demand the release of the man who had tried to murder him. Such behaviour is an affront to any innocent victim of terrorism. McGeough should not be released until he has served his full sentence. That is the end of the story.
	Marian Price had her licence revoked by the previous Secretary of State for encouraging support for the very same terrorists who would seek to plunge Northern Ireland back into the violence and bloodshed of the past. At this juncture, there can be no question of setting her free. I hope the Secretary of State reiterates the Government’s support for the decision taken by her predecessor in that regard.
	I hope the Secretary of State provides an assurance that any PSNI request for additional resources to tackle the threat posed by dissident republicans will be looked on favourably by the Government. When we are talking about protecting the safety and security of British citizens, there can be no question of penny pinching. Prison officers, who are currently the focus of attention, need protection. Whatever package is required—whether PPWs or home protection—needs to be provided.
	Hon. Members on both sides of the House will recognise that Ulster has lost too many young men and women, and men and women who have served their country for many years. We do not want to see any more.

Several hon. Members: rose—

Dawn Primarolo: Order. I should inform Members who wish to take part in the debate how it will run for the rest of the afternoon. Five Members wish to participate, and we are due to start the wind-ups at around 4 o’clock. I am not putting a time limit on speeches now, but asking each of you to consider the clock to ensure that the time is allocated fairly between you. Otherwise, I will do it for you.

Sammy Wilson: I suppose there was a certain nervousness about this debate. It has been a measured debate, but as many hon. Members have said, we do not wish to paint a picture of Northern Ireland as being back in the 1970s and 1980s. Considerable progress has been made. I was glad that, when my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) introduced the debate, he gave a balanced picture of a Northern Ireland that has moved on considerably. The Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State, and all hon. Members who have spoken, have echoed that.
	The one thing that would give great consolation to those who murdered Prison Officer Black would be that their vile act is used to try to destabilise Northern
	Ireland further—economically, politically and in all other ways. That has not happened. The family have acted with dignity, and the community and security forces have been responsive, which is important. For Northern Ireland to succeed, and for us to move in the direction we want—to a normal and prosperous society that gives hope to young people who are looking for jobs, and families who want to bring up their children in a stable environment—we cannot allow the cancer of terrorism once again to push Northern Ireland into the headlines for all the wrong reasons.
	This year, we have had more tourists than ever, and we have succeeded even in the middle of a recession in attracting more foreign direct investment to our economy than any other region bar the south-east of England. Despite that and all the other changes, some people would love to wallow and say, “Things are just as bad as what they ever were.” I do not want this debate to give credence to such a view of life: that is not where Northern Ireland is today. We have already referred to the events that have happened this year and the events we are looking forward to next year. Even in Londonderry, with its republican and nationalist majority on the council, they are going to celebrate the UK city of culture next year. That is how Northern Ireland has changed. We may even have the Deputy First Minister going to the Brit awards—

Gregory Campbell: The Brits out awards! [ Laughter. ]

Sammy Wilson: I have not heard that phrase for a while.
	As hon. Members have pointed out, despite those changes it is important that we do not get complacent and that we recognise that dangers still lurk that affect people’s daily lives in Northern Ireland. We have to deal with those dangers, and I accept that we as the public representatives in Northern Ireland have a responsibility to deal with them ourselves. I am glad that we are moving away from the days when we went and asked everyone else to help us with our problems and relied on them to sort out our problems for us. We have a devolved Administration, which includes parties across the board, although it is a difficult arrangement to make work, especially when dealing with people as financially irresponsible as Sinn Fein and, marginally behind them, the SDLP. People talk of their support for the police, but if the police start to deal with some of the colleagues of those who were involved in terrorism, that support suddenly becomes qualified. It is disgraceful—

Naomi Long: Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that Ministers from his own party advocate civil disobedience in the face of violence in the streets of our cities? That is also irresponsible and should be condemned and avoided.

Sammy Wilson: In any democratic society, there is always the opportunity for people to engage in peaceful protest, if that is what the hon. Lady means. There is a huge difference between those who say that members of the public can engage in peaceful protest and those who say that it is political policing for the police to go through due process to arrest people for serious crimes—including murder. I notice that the SDLP Members have been quiet on this point. It is one thing for someone on Dungannon council in the back of beyond to call for the release of someone who was guilty of trying to
	murder a council colleague: it is another to stand up in the House of Commons and defend that. I note that SDLP Members have not tried to do that, because there is a bit more public scrutiny here.
	It is important that we in Northern Ireland take responsibility not only for seeking to try to heal the divisions of the past, but for giving support to those who have to deal with the reality of the lingering terrorism that we still experience. I do not buy the idea—to which the shadow Secretary of State referred—that people get involved in terrorism because they are economically deprived. We do an injustice to people who have lived their lives in difficult economic conditions and never become involved in crime if we make that excuse. We have a responsibility to provide hope in our society, so that people can have a stake in it, feel that there is something better for them and that it is a place where they want to belong. The Executive is seeking to do that and to direct resources towards the young and unemployed, and people who have lost their jobs. We are looking at innovative ways to try to give that economic hope to people.
	There is a need for security policies that will be effective, and responsibility for those may, at some stage, lie with the Government here in Westminster. If we are going to deal with terrorism, we must have intelligence. There are various ways of gathering intelligence—electronic surveillance and so on—but human intelligence sources are also important. The security services are responsible for gathering that intelligence in Northern Ireland. I know that they are hampered in doing so, and I remember my time in the police force and some of the unrealistic demands that were made, especially by some of the SDLP representatives—Sinn Fein was not on the Police Board then. People almost had to be Sunday school teachers to become informants for the police because there were so many restrictions. If people were involved in this, that or the other, they could not be recruited as intelligence sources. We would have been left with people who would not have had any idea about what was going on in the criminal underworld of terrorism if we had stuck by those restrictions. The important question is what changes we need to make to get the intelligence required to ensure that those who want to engage in such criminal behaviour are quickly identified.
	There is also a resource aspect to this. I know that the Police Federation has talked about 1,000 extra police officers. I do not know whether we need 1,000 extra police officers or not, but I do know that if we are to target terrorists—including intensive surveillance on them—it will require additional resources. I give credit to the Government because when policing and justice was devolved, we were given additional resources for policing of £50 million on a yearly basis, depending on the assessment of the security situation. The Chief Constable and the Northern Ireland Executive made the case that they had to plan ahead and could not be left to wonder whether they would get the £50 million every year—whether the security situation would be assessed as okay or as having deteriorated. They asked for the money to be guaranteed for a four-year period, so that planning could take place to make best use of the resources. I pay tribute to the
	Government and the Treasury for accepting that argument, and that is why the Chief Constable has been able to plan ahead.
	Additional resources may be required in the future. If so, it will be to deal with a national security situation, and not just to have more community policemen on the ground in Northern Ireland. I understand why Members on both sides of the House, when they see cuts in their police service, ask why Northern Ireland is treated differently from other parts of the United Kingdom when it comes to constraints on police budgets. But this issue does not only apply to Northern Ireland. If the situation gets out of hand, it will have national security implications. Republicans would far rather do something on the UK mainland than Northern Ireland—that would be much more newsworthy. They get the base, they get the wherewithal, they get the ability and they get the mechanisms for doing it, and we can be sure that this is where the targets will be.
	If the Chief Constable makes the assessment that additional resources are needed, I hope there will be a positive response. That is not to say that we in the Northern Ireland Executive must not do anything. Indeed, we have provided for greater flexibility in the security budget than for any other budget. In any other Department, where money is not, or cannot, be spent in the way it was voted on, it has to be returned to the centre and looked at again. The security budget has been ring-fenced so that the Chief Constable has much greater flexibility. This is not an issue of holding out our hands and looking for more money; this is about what we can do for ourselves first of all. However, if the situation deteriorates—I hope that it does not, and that there is never a need to call on the House and the Government for more resources for policing in Northern Ireland; I, and the citizens of Northern Ireland, want to see policing return to normality—then that is one thing that could be done.
	I appreciate the response—the support and recognition—from all parts of the House to the situation in Northern Ireland. For our part, we raised this issue because it is important to the people who live in Northern Ireland for it to be highlighted. We have done so in a measured way; not in an alarmist way, but in a way that, as public representatives in Northern Ireland, we have a duty to do.

Margaret Ritchie: I welcome the motion despite the barbed and direct attacks on me, my leader and colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), and my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). It was absolutely scandalous, because our record on violence and our record against terrorism, all down the years, has been straight and to the point: we reject it all.
	It is of paramount importance at this time, when there is undoubtedly a growing threat from dissident republicans, that we show solidarity with those who do most to make our communities safe. That includes, obviously, the PSNI and the Prison Service. The murder of Prison Officer David Black was an abhorrent crime against a man who was doing an important and difficult job on behalf of us all. It was also a vicious crime against the family and friends of Mr Black. Our thoughts and prayers continue to be with them.
	If I am to be frank, apart from relative stability, there are not that many successes that our somewhat dysfunctional devolved Government in Northern Ireland can claim. Hopefully, that will change. None the less, the outstanding achievement of this spell of devolution is that we have all taken a united stand against terror from whatever source. For some of us, that is nothing new. My own party has always stood against politically motivated violence whatever the goal, whatever the frustration at the lack of movement, or whatever the anger about the lack of justice. For us, the recent violence is little different, except thankfully in its magnitude, from the violence we all endured in past decades. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

David Simpson: In the hon. Lady’s opening comments, she said that her party had stood against terrorism. That is fine, but will she condemn her leader for calling for the release of former terrorists?

Margaret Ritchie: We were very concerned that the prisons issue does not feed the dissidents, as happened with the provisional movement in the past.
	If I may continue: my party has stood against violence. Violence was wrong back in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s and it is wrong now—simple, clear. Others have come a longer way—whether those who have renounced the armed struggle and have followed the electoral road to places such as this, or those, including the Democratic Unionist party who moved this motion, who fanned the flames of division for many years, including sporadic flirtations with paramilitarism and lawlessness. We are now all in the same place. We stand united against terror and we will not be moved. It is vital that we continue, whatever else may divide us, that united stand against terror. There must be no slippage on anyone’s part.
	I recognise the distance travelled by others and acknowledge that we are united against terror. That unity is genuine and, I believe, resilient. However, I must also caution the DUP and Sinn Fein on how we maintain our united stand and how we deepen our commitment. To Sinn Fein I say the following: they perhaps have travelled furthest of all and deserve credit for that, but they can and should do more. First, they should stop describing a murderous atrocity as achieving nothing, or pointless, or condemning the perpetrators as having no strategy. Such acts are not just wrong strategically and tactically—they are just plain wrong. They are morally wrong. It would help if they could just say so.
	Secondly, republicans must do more to provide every shred of information they have, whether recent or from the recesses of their memories, to the police—not selectively, but completely. I believe that it was a major step backwards to see Sinn Fein leaders recently protesting outside police headquarters against the arrest of a republican in the investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney in Belfast. One either supports the police or not, and the dogs on the street know that republicans have yet to come clean on the brutal murder of Robert McCartney and the subsequent despicable persecution by republicans of his family.
	It is not just Sinn Fein who need to do more to strengthen our united stand against terror. The party behind the motion can sometimes be uncomfortably close to some of the hard men on the other side.
	I understand that the DUP leader only recently complained to the Irish Government that funding going into worthwhile north/south infrastructure projects should instead go to community projects for loyalists, because loyalist paramilitaries were getting restless and were increasingly of a disposition to strike out. That is not good enough. Our united stand against terror must include all of those who espouse terror and violence, not only the republican dissidents in this motion but the intimidatory thugs who continue to prey on working class communities on all sides. I would hope that the DUP pay heed to that.

Nigel Dodds: The hon. Lady made a statement in relation to my party leader, the First Minister of Northern Ireland. I would just be grateful if she could provide the House with any evidence that she may have for that ridiculous statement.

Margaret Ritchie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I think there is evidence to that effect and he should discuss it directly with his colleagues who serve in the Northern Ireland Executive. [ Interruption. ] Yes, there is evidence to that effect.
	We must not allow the tragic murder of Mr David Black to curtail our appetite for reform in the north. Our hard-working Justice Minister has plans to reform the Prison Service, just as we have reformed policing, and we must let him get on with it.
	If there is one thing politicians can do to honour the memory of David Black and everyone else killed over the last several years—the police officers and other members of the security forces tragically murdered three or four years ago, and the other brave citizens cut down while providing essential public services—it is to strengthen and deepen our big achievement in devolution, which is our united stand against terror. That is what we should all subscribe to and what we in the SDLP—my party leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and I—have done continually.

Naomi Long: I thank DUP Members for bringing this motion to the House, although, like others, I am saddened that it is so pertinent as so many positive things have happened in Northern Ireland in recent years. We have seen a remarkable transformation. The city I grew up in is unrecognisable compared with how it was during the worst of the troubles. We should be hugely grateful for that. It is an achievement of which we should all be hugely proud, having made it happen.
	This is a pertinent motion, however, because the security threat in Northern Ireland is very real. It was visited most recently on the family of David Black, with his brutal murder. I want to offer again my condolences to his family—to his wife, his son and daughter, his parents and his sister, and the wider family—and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Prison Service. It was an appalling murder committed in cold blood, and those who did it not only ruthlessly took a life but recklessly endangered others on the motorway that morning. That demonstrates their utter disregard and contempt for the entire community more effectively than any words of mine in this place could ever do.
	The murder was particularly ironic, given that David Black was an officer with a strong reputation within the prison service for supporting improved prisoner welfare. The motives of his murderers contrast sharply with those prisoners in Maghaberry who found a way to mark their respect for him as an officer in that facility, seeking a book of condolences that they could sign. That is a poignant tribute to the quality of service he gave to those placed in his care in the Prison Service.
	It is important also to commend the police for their ongoing efforts to counter terrorist threats from all sources. As others have mentioned, we know that two people have been arrested for questioning today in relation to the murder. I welcome that, because it describes an active and ongoing police investigation. I wish them every success in bringing those responsible to justice. In doing so, they are not just delivering justice for the family but delivering justice and protection for the wider community. It is hugely important that the community co-operate fully with the police in all their efforts. I also commend the close and effective co-operation between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda. I know that my party leader, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, is hugely impressed and encouraged by the ongoing work in that regard.
	I also commend the speedy response of the Prison Service and the police service in dealing with the concerns about the personal security of prison officers that have arisen as a result of the most recent attack. As others have said, there were concerns about the speed of clearance of applications for personal protection weapons by officers leaving the service under the early redundancy scheme. I understand that they have been at least partially addressed by way of a commitment from the Chief Constable to fast-track those applications. There were also concerns about the duration of the maintenance support for home security measures for prison officers, but I believe that they have been resolved by an amendment to the scheme by the Prison Service. Clearly, other action is being taken to address the outstanding issues.
	This was not only an attack on an individual or the security services; it was an attack on the whole community, and as such it requires a security, a political and a community response. These attacks are designed to dissuade people from joining the security services, to disrupt the political system, to drive a wedge between parts of the community and to reignite and exploit sectarian tensions. It is hugely important, therefore, that we work together and present a united front against people engaged in such activities to ensure that they do not achieve any of those objectives. The community needs to pull together and co-operate with the PSNI in bringing those responsible to justice.
	As we are repeatedly reminded in statements by political leaders, these dissident groups are small, but there is no direct correlation between their effectiveness and destructiveness and their size. They are forensically aware and therefore able continually to avoid detection. It is hugely important that we do not underestimate the impact that these individuals can have in our community. They have been denounced by Father Michael Canny, who sought to engage with dissident republicans and
	bring about a ceasefire and the disbandment of those groups. He denounced them as “mindless morons” with nothing positive to offer our community. We would all concur with his assessment, but a mindless moron with a weapon or bomb is a dangerous individual. We should never lose sight of that. These groups might lack a vision for the future, but they are a threat to the present and the future, and we need to take them seriously. They are more wedded to their struggle than to any cause, which makes it particularly difficult for political intervention to succeed.
	On the security response, I want to reflect on the need for Westminster to co-operate with the Northern Ireland Executive. Like others, I welcome the additional funding made available by the Treasury for the current comprehensive spending review period, and I recognise the importance of countering the threat during this period and the level of commitment to ensuring it continues into the next period. Northern Irish Members, like Government Members, have mentioned the huge opportunities in the coming years in Northern Ireland. Huge international events are due to happen, and we are hugely thankful that those things can take place in Northern Ireland and will shine a light on the positive things happening in our community. That is something we should welcome.
	We have to recognise, however, that those events will place additional pressures on the PSNI when it comes to policing them, be they the UK city of culture, the world police and fire games or the G8 summit. All those are, in effect, UK-wide events being hosted in Northern Ireland, and a single police force should not be expected to carry all the financial burden. The Police Federation for Northern Ireland recently raised with me its concerns that although mutual aid is available to the PSNI through the UK-wide scheme, it can often be difficult to access. For example, many other forces are not routinely armed or trained in the specific skills needed to engage in civil disobedience situations, as is the case in Northern Ireland. We need to consider that point when we look to police resources and what is available to them.
	I am happy to support the motion, but I note an omission, which is why I am grateful for the remarks made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and, in response, the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and others about loyalist paramilitaries. They are also active in our community; they are a destructive force, and the damage they can do should not be underestimated. Their activities are no longer monitored as publicly as they used to be when the Independent Monitoring Commission was involved. Often, these activities are dismissed, even when we raise them with the Northern Ireland Office, as merely criminality, but it is criminality with a political purpose, and we should never lose sight of that. We should be wary of not monitoring it as effectively and publicly as have done in the past. Allegations of such groups recruiting young people are rife, and there is evidence of their being involved in civil unrest on the streets of our city and our towns over the last few months, as others have said.

Stephen Lloyd: Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the challenges in some parts of Northern Ireland is that some loyalist racketeers are blocking the good work that the devolved Government are trying to do to improve employment prospects?

Naomi Long: I concur entirely. In some areas where loyalism has a particular grip on the community, racketeering and profiteering from local businesses has often led to the destruction of small businesses and severely damaged economic opportunities for those living in the immediate area.

Sammy Wilson: indicated  assent .

Naomi Long: I see the hon. Gentleman—who was previously a councillor in my constituency—concurring. We are talking about something recognisable in many of the communities that both of us have served. It is therefore hugely important that we take seriously the call by the Police Federation for Northern Ireland to consider re-specifying organisations such as the Ulster Volunteer Force and also proscribing some of the newer republican organisations, in order to aid the police and security services in making progress against such organisations.
	I was born at the end of 1971; 1972 was the worst year of the troubles. I lived my whole life as a child against the backdrop of violence in the city I grew up in. I look at Belfast now and it is not the city that I grew up in. It is a better, more vibrant, more open and more welcoming place. I am hugely proud to have lived in that city; however, I would not wish my experiences of growing up there as a child to be visited on another generation. When the Good Friday agreement and the subsequent political agreements were made, I believed that we were moving towards the end of such experiences. I do not want young people in my community to have the same memories—of death and destruction, of fear and terror—as I and my contemporaries grew up experiencing. It is not a normal way to live, and it should not be visited on today’s young people. Therefore, as elected representatives, together with the security services and the community, we must present a united front so that those intent on continuing down this destructive path are prevented at every turn.
	Security is part of the answer, but it is not the whole answer. Our security response in the current context needs to be effective, but also consistent with the kind of Northern Ireland we want for the future. We need politics to work. It needs to be a real alternative. It needs to be resilient in the face of attack and united in its condemnation of any breach of the rule of the law, and without equivocation. We need to redouble our efforts to build a shared society and tackle sectarianism, which remains a breeding ground for the kind of hatred that in turn breeds paramilitarism. We need maturity and generosity in dealing with the difficult issues that still face us as a community, as part of the legacy of the troubles. We need to find ways of doing that which do not bring people on to the streets, placing them in conflict with our security services and creating opportunities for those who wish to take the extra step from peaceful protest to violent conflict by providing them with a platform to do so.

Oliver Colvile: Does the hon. Lady agree that a fundamental part of preventing those issues from reoccurring is rebalancing the economy and creating a much more vibrant economy in Northern Ireland?

Naomi Long: I agree that the economy is part of the solution, but would not argue that it is the cause of the problem. Although we have to recognise that those
	from economically deprived and disadvantaged backgrounds may be more likely to fall prey to paramilitary organisations, it would be unjust to those of us who grew up in such communities, as I did, to suggest that that is a natural choice that people make. People still have responsibility for their actions and for abiding by the rule of law, so the economy cannot excuse, although it might inform, our response. We need to be conscious of that.
	The peace that we have in Northern Ireland is exceptionally precious, and none of us should ever treat it lightly. It remains fragile, so I support the motion and the Government’s efforts with the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that Northern Ireland continues to prosper, as it has over recent years, and that those who are hellbent on its destruction are frustrated at every turn.

Ian Paisley Jnr: Throughout this debate we have heard perspectives—perspectives of the troubles and an attempt to put the current situation in Northern Ireland into a new perspective—and it has been very valuable. We heard a thoughtful contribution from the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), whose constituency bears the scar of Irish terror. As each Member walks into this Chamber, under the scarred and broken ramparts of the Churchill arch, and as we see above us the memorials to Robert Bradford, Airey Neave and Ian Gow, we are all reminded of just how far we have come. It is a miracle; there is absolutely no doubt about it.
	The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) mentioned her pride at having grown up as a Belfast woman and a citizen of Northern Ireland, understanding where she has come from and where her city has come from. All of us on these Benches whose formative years were spent in those times remember an average body bag count of 80 or 90 souls sent into eternity by the assassin’s bullet. That was our daily news intake as we grew up. Only now, in normal times—and thank God they are normal times—do we realise how perverse and awful it was and what a harrowing vista it is to look back on. As a father, probably the happiest occasion for me was when my daughter was 14 or 15 and said to me one day, when she had started her GCSE course, “Daddy, what are the troubles?” As a person who grew up in Northern Ireland and knew when I was 14 or 15 how bloody the troubles were, that was a great question to be asked as a parent—a powerful question, and something that should spur us on, as fathers and grandfathers in this House, to hope that our children and our children’s children never go through or witness that awfulness again, as the hon. Lady said. It is important that we have that perspective, because the security needs of the country we live in are now very different, but they are still incredibly real. We should face these things head-on.
	In the current spending round the police have been given sufficient resources. We campaigned for that before the devolution of policing and justice powers—we made it a red line and we achieved that. That was job done, because it was essential to put our security services on a fair and good footing, so they could take us forward, hand in hand with economic progress, political stability and, of course, security gold-plating. We needed all that, but the current Chief Constable and his senior
	team now have to put forward their bid for the new spending round, and that involves a leap of faith. Their calculations are not being made using clear, understood figures from the Secretary of State, the Northern Ireland Office and the Government of Northern Ireland. They are being made with a leap of faith. The police need to retain the same level of spending that they got in the last spending round; otherwise, they will be under severe pressure.
	The Police Federation for Northern Ireland has called for an increase in police numbers. My hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and I served on the Policing Board for about seven years—I think that we were among the longest-serving members—and we constantly heard that call. We saw the numbers in the police service drop from 12,000 to 7,000. It now has about 6,800 members. The fact is that, this week, the police are going to have to start recruiting about 300 more police officers. They have not asked permission to do so yet; they are taking a leap of faith. Because of the new training mechanisms and the long gestation period between starting as a probationer and becoming an active, serving officer on the street, they need to push that button now, but they are taking a leap of faith because the money to recruit an additional 300 officers simply is not there.
	The Chief Constable and his team are going to go to the Policing Board and ask for that money, and I believe that we in this House, across the parties, and the Secretary of State should encourage them. We should tell them not only that they can ask for it but that they will have the resource to get the number of full-time police officers back up to 7,150. Why do we need those extra officers? Why do we need that money? We need them in order to sustain our security capability in a practical way. An example is the air support unit that the police service runs. It requires a huge amount of resource to keep it going. The air patrols allow the police to watch people as they travel along certain roads. The main road from Dublin, from the border at Newry through to Belfast, is a smugglers paradise. Many millions of pounds-worth of contraband cigarettes and smuggled fuel go up and down that road every day. There is a multi-million pound enterprise run by gangsters and criminals, and the police need air support as well as ground support if they are to stop it. There are other measures that can be taken, and I shall come to those later.
	The police also need money for close protection work. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said, they need money for surveillance operations. One of the things that galls many Members is that, although we know that certain individuals in Northern Ireland are responsible for particular crimes, the police have been unable to get sufficient evidence to secure successful prosecutions. Those people are loose on our streets. A great deal of effort is going into providing proper surveillance of a certain person on the streets of the mainland at the moment. Every effort is being made to ensure that he is being properly tagged and that, at the first opportunity, he will be kicked out of this nation.
	We need the same surveillance equipment to be made available for certain people operating in Northern Ireland. One particular individual there is responsible for five
	murders. He was brought to trial for three of them, but got off on a technicality. That is the way the law works, and we all accept the rule of law, but it galls us that the police in Northern Ireland do not appear to have sufficient resources to watch that man day and night, so that the next time he tries to plan what was planned on the Lurgan bypass, he can be prevented from doing it. I hope that the police get the money and the surveillance equipment they need to undermine individuals such as those.
	Any diminution of the police’s ability to do their work has a morale-eating impact not only on police officers but on the entire civilian population of Northern Ireland. The police have to balance their books this year, but they can do that only if they know that they are not taking a leap of faith and hoping to get resources next year and in the next Government spending round. They need adequate resources to do their job.
	I mentioned in an earlier intervention that the level of churn in the police force had increased. More police officers than ever before are now resigning after only a short policing career. The level does not yet represent a spike on the charts, but it is starting to illustrate the existence of a problem. Police officers used to identify their work as a calling, and they would spend 30 years or more serving their community in that way. The new regime encourages police officers to see it as a short career, and many now go on to work in business or management or some other profession. That has an impact on the police force’s ability to hold on to recruits and to do the job. If that becomes a problem in the future, we will need the resource to address it.
	The police certainly will need resources to police the G8 summit; they will need them to police the world police and fire games; and, as we approach 2016, they will certainly need them to police any public disturbance or anything that arises as a result of those who will try to turn their memories into the commemoration of the Somme or, in the south of Ireland, those who will try to turn their memories into the commemoration of the Easter rising. Those things will present policing challenges, so we must ensure that the police have adequate resources to address them.
	Each year, we spend £37 million of policing money on policing the past. We have to do that because in order to get justice for what happened in the past, we have to gather evidence, pursue those cases and hopefully bring people to trial—but that is a huge draining resource that does not affect policing in any other part of the United Kingdom. Next year, we will spend £6 million on the Historical Enquiries Team; we will spend £6 million this year on inquests; and we will spend £25 million on legacy investigations—current detectives involved in policing the past. That has to be done, as I say, but it is at a cost. I want policing for the present and the future, but I know we have to continue with the project of getting through these cases and ensuring that we bring justice to people who rightly have questions that need to be answered.
	We have to recognise, however, that if that huge demand is there, the police cannot step forward on a leap of faith when it comes to their budgets for next year and the next Government spending round. They have to know now that they will be adequately resourced to police the issues I mentioned, to furnish the HET,
	inquests and legacy investigations and to get on with tackling sex trafficking and other serious and organised crime in Northern Ireland.
	One of the biggest crimes that goes on in Northern Ireland is fuel laundering. I am glad that our Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee is studying the problem. This is a multi-million pound crime. As I said, there is a highway—the A1 between Newry and Belfast—that is a smugglers paradise, and fuel is smuggled there every day. We need more resource put in to prevent that from taking place. We need resource put in to find a proper fuel marker to diminish the current nonsense of officers from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs pouring orange dye into fuel and then saying, “There—the problem’s solved”. It is not solved. I do not care about the colour poured in; whether orange or green dye is used, it does not solve the problem because all that happens is that it is laundered out of the fuel. The more dye poured in, the more kitty litter needs to be stolen to launder it through the process. That just perpetuates this cycle of crime. We need a new fuel marker in our fuel as soon as possible to stop the crime and put those gangsters out of business.
	Just this week, gangsters in Belfast had a huge petrol station dug up. It was owned by a man in South Armagh, but it was dug up and the tanks were removed. Will the gangster be charged? No. Will he go to jail? No. How much has he stolen from the Secretary of State’s Government? Tens and tens of millions of pounds in this year alone—and he is getting away with it. We need that matter to be addressed—urgently.

Oliver Colvile: Does the hon. Gentleman and fellow member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee agree that we also need some more convictions? People who behave this way are stealing money out of the Treasury’s pockets; we need to make sure that they get sent to prison for it.

Ian Paisley Jnr: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: the figures are startling. This year, because of smugglers, the Treasury will lose £3 billion in unpaid revenue on cigarettes—about a third of the entire Northern Ireland budget. That is an incredible loss to the Exchequer. How many people will go to jail for that? Zero—a big fat zero. Why? Because these people are not prosecuted. The latest thing we hear is “Well, we will do our best to get more of these people behind bars.” If surveillance cannot be done, if these people cannot be trapped and if proper markers cannot be put in the fuel, we will never have sufficient evidence to convict them. I believe that in the past 11 years, during which the Government have lost billions of pounds in unpaid revenue because of fuel and cigarette smuggling, the authorities have prosecuted fewer than seven people and none have gone to jail. That is in an indictment of those at the top in the HMRC: they should be taking this on, and taking it on with a vengeance.

Jim Shannon: Does my hon. Friend agree that more HMRC personnel should be available at airports such as Belfast City and Aldergrove? Staff tell elected Members that there are not enough of them to catch offenders. Would not providing extra staff be a start?

Ian Paisley Jnr: That is an interesting point. I understand that the current customs special investigation team consists of five people—five people dealing with the multi-billion-
	pound crime that is taking place in Northern Ireland. Those five people are brilliant, and they experience threats to their lives because of the work that they do and the people whom they approach; but their work is being hampered because the Government have decided that it is important to focus on VAT fraud—on an office desk job that involves going through VAT forms and deciding whether there has been any fraud. That is a disgrace, and we need to get on with ensuring that those staff are properly resourced.
	We study history to learn the lessons, not to repeat the mistakes. It is clear that many mistakes have been made down the years, but Northern Ireland has turned a page, and there is a new chapter that Members of Parliament are helping to write. We are seeing a new beginning, a bright dawn, and it is a much better, brighter society in which we are living. However, there are still hurdles for us to jump, and we can jump them only if our security services are properly resourced and we set out in a spirit of real togetherness to make the changes that are necessary.

Mark Durkan: I support the motion. Let me begin by discussing its opening sentiments, which concern the murder of David Black.
	David Black’s murder was rightly, strongly, thoroughly and comprehensively condemned across the democratic political spectrum, which counts for an awful lot and, I hope, means something to his family and colleagues. That may distinguish it from some of the previous murders of prison officers and others. However, I want to make clear that while we welcome that united, strong condemnation, we believe that every other murder committed by every other paramilitary group was equally deserving of that thorough, comprehensive condemnation. David Black was entitled to his life and his living; so were all the other prison officers who were murdered by various paramilitaries. His family were entitled to his living love; so was every other victim in Northern Ireland.
	It is not the case that there was a phase during which there were legitimate targets and we are now experiencing a phase during which there are no legitimate targets. We all need to be clear about that, because there is a danger that gross revisionism, on all sides and in all directions, will eventually plant in the heads of a new generation the false notion that the troubles were merely a necessary and unavoidable prelude to the peace process that we now have. They were not. We must bear in mind the violent campaign of the IRA and the violence of loyalist paramilitaries, and the fact that loyalist paramilitaries were indulged for years without even being proscribed. Unionist politicians justified the existence of the Ulster Defence Association by saying that it was a legal organisation, and Ministers in this House—in both parties—justified not proscribing it as though there were some acceptable level or form of terrorism or paramilitarism, which there never has been. I reject any suggestion, whether it comes from Martin McGuinness or any other member of Sinn Fein or from anyone else, that there was ever any way of treating paramilitarism in any of its forms.
	Of course David Black’s family have been promised what the families of many other victims have been promised in the past: that no stone will be left unturned
	to bring the killers to justice. I join other Members in stating that I hope that is true, but the work of the Historical Enquiries Team and other organisations has revealed that it was often in the past not true when victims were told no stone would be left unturned, because it has been found that information held by the intelligence services was not passed on to the police, or that when information was passed on, the use to which it could be put was heavily circumscribed.
	There were victims whose murders could have been prevented. There could have been intervention, apprehension and prosecution, but that did not happen because an intelligence long-game was being played, which allowed violence to happen. There was collusion and complicity, and that was not confined to the indulging of loyalist paramilitaries in attacks on Catholics; it extended to republican attacks on police or prison officers and on civilian targets. Such attacks were allowed because it was believed that an intelligence asset was being protected and must not be compromised. That should not happen.
	People need to know that if anything has changed as a result of the peace process it is that there will be no interference or inhibition in the full and proper conduct of police inquiries and of prosecutions of anybody against whom there is relevant evidence. No consideration of protection of intelligence assets must be allowed to interfere in that. All victims need to have that assurance nowadays, and they need it all the more because there is evidence that in the past victims were sold short.
	Even the victims of the Omagh bombing feel that way. I know how sick they feel when they hear it being said that no stone will be left unturned, because they were assured of that as well. They believe calculations were made and mistakes were allowed to happen in the Omagh investigation. As we completely reject the murder of David Black and the agenda of those behind it, we must also be clear that we are in no way trying to sanitise any of the past violence and excesses of any group.
	As has been said, the murder of David Black comes at a time when there are many things we should be positive about and be trying to build on. We are now learning to move beyond lobbying our special case—which we are very good at, and have had to be very good at—and are getting much better at selling our special place. We will be able to do that through the opportunities we will have at the G8 summit next year, and we saw it with the MTV awards and the Titanic festival in Belfast. We will see it again at the world police and fire games, and when Derry becomes the UK’s city of culture next year. That will be a fantastic year-long celebration which will offer great opportunities for the city, particularly as it will be happening in the same year that the island of Ireland will have “The Gathering” as a way of bringing back the diaspora to the island of Ireland. That will enable us to sell in a new way, and it will be hugely important and positive. We want to build on all those positive sells.
	Of course, there are dissident groups and tendencies who know that all such events and sells present an easy target for them. They could get very easy coverage from leaving a bomb outside the city of culture offices in Derry, for instance, or from planting devices here and
	there. However, we should not be thwarted, intimidated, deflated or deflected in any way by the fact of knowing that they are going to try to do that. They might be able to come up with viable devices that they can plant, but they have not been able to come up with any viable rationale for what they are doing, because they are just stuck in a groove, carrying out the old provo tactics through the old provo methods. That is the only agenda they have.
	As far as I am concerned, if these dissidents have any rationale, let them bring it forward—let them take it to us. I will meet them; I have met them before, and I will meet them again, in my constituency or elsewhere. Any argument or case they want to put can be met by democrats, and it needs to be met by democratic nationalism and republicanism. There is an agenda for democratic nationalism and republicanism in the coming years: to disarm any pretence these dissidents have, not least in the build-up to 2016 and the centenary of the 1916 rising, that they are the sole keepers of the republican flame and that because they are the remnants of physical-force republicanism, they are the only people who stand in the 21st century for the ideals of Irish republicanism and for the principles in the 1916 proclamation. Democratic nationalism, in all its forms and parties—now joined, thankfully at last, by Sinn Fein—has a duty to get its act together to make sure that nobody is able to say that constitutional democratic nationalism, north and south, has been derelict on the basic nationalist cause or nationalist principle.
	The dissidents try to say that those of us who subscribe to the Good Friday agreement have abandoned any belief in nationalism or the republican ideal. I am 100% committed to the Good Friday agreement but I am still 100% a nationalist and committed to a united Ireland. I also know that many Unionists are 100% committed to the shared institutions we now have in a settled process but that they are 100% committed to the Union. That is the strength and beauty of the agreement and these shared institutions: we can have our own different senses of legitimacy. The sense and source of legitimacy for me, as an Irish nationalist, comes from the wishes of the people of Ireland. The sense and source of legitimacy for Unionists is bound up in the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland.
	With the Good Friday agreement, we recruited both those senses and sources of legitimacy, so that we could give allegiance to institutions, because Unionists cannot give allegiance to institutions that are not legitimate according to their political ethic, and nationalists and republicans cannot give allegiance to institutions that are not legitimate according to theirs. That is why in negotiating the agreement and in ratifying it by the joint referendum—articulated self-determination for this generation of the Irish people—we significantly moved politics forward. We created a new beginning for politics and for policing.
	There was massive resistance to that, as we knew then. At the time of the referendum on that agreement, I made pledges to people about those institutions. Many people found the institutions controversial; people found the idea of inclusion by mandate—just this elective inclusion—hard to grasp. I started off as its sole proponent in the Social Democratic and Labour party, and the SDLP started off in the talks as the sole party proposing it, but it became part of the outcome. Similarly, the idea
	of a joint office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister was ridiculed by many, not least because we came up with it only in the last month of the negotiations, but it was inspired by the sight of Seamus Mallon and David Trimble going to Poyntzpass following the murder of Damien Trainor and Philip Allen by the Loyalist Volunteer Force. That was a symbol: here were two leaders—unionism and nationalism—almost literally helping to bind the wounds of the community and defy a violent threat aimed at undermining political prospects at the time.
	At the time of that referendum, I predicted that the Good Friday agreement institutions would have working in partnership not just unionists and nationalists, loyalists and republicans, but those who vote yes and those who vote no, because we did not want the agreement—those pro-agreement and anti-agreement—to end up being the new running cleavage in Northern Ireland politics or in Irish politics. Thankfully, that prediction has proved to be so.
	Sinn Fein had to play catch-up in accepting and getting its head around the political institutions in the new arrangements and the new beginning for policing, which it rejected and attacked us for. All sorts of intimidatory gestures were used in the council chambers when we were nominating people to the district policing partnerships; gun-shaped hands were being pointed at people and all the rest of it. We faced that down and we saw this through because it needed to happen. Those people of course were saying that change would not happen. The unionists, in the form of the Democratic Unionist party and others, were saying that change should not happen, but it needed to happen. In the end, when those in Sinn Fein conformed on policing all they brought to the policing agenda was themselves. Nevertheless, that was important and welcome, and we see its importance and worth when we see the First Minister and Deputy First Minister able to stand with the Chief Constable and others in the aftermath of murders in recent years. That was hugely important and it had to happen, but some of us had to see it through and take that stand, and some of the “veto-holic” tendencies of other parties had to be faced down—that is what has to be remembered.
	In today’s debate, I have listened to nostalgia bumping into amnesia on the way back from revisionism on the question of how we are where we are now. We have had more people on more roads to Damascus in Northern Ireland in the past 10 years than the Syrian bus fleet would have on a peaceful day. That has been good, because people have moved from justifying and supporting violence to being able to condemn it. They used to condemn us for the politics of condemnation; now they are thoroughly involved in condemning what should be and needs to be condemned and confronted.
	There is also an issue about dissidents. Not only will they try to exploit the fact that the rest of us all support the agreement and are now branded as the establishment, particularly at a time when there is a lot of economic disaffection and difficulty—it is very easy for them to try to seize on that sense of alienation, which has been faced by some other hon. Members—but they are trying to exploit impressions about the situation in the prisons. Historically, the provisionals movement exploited impressions and issues in prisons in a way that helped to fuel them and their campaign and to feed a sense of
	alienation and disaffection, helping them to recruit other people. It is quite clear that the dissidents are trying to do the same.
	I believe we need to disarm the dissidents of that ability, and we can do so. Nobody is more cynical about the cynicism of Sinn Fein than me, but when I meet republican dissident prisoners and their families and they tell me, “We think Sinn Fein is using the situation because they want to break us in the jails,” I tell them that although no one would be more on Sinn Fein’s case than me, I do not believe that that is true. The idea that Sinn Fein is using David Ford, the Minister of Justice, to help break their rivals in the prisons is simply not true. It is nonsense, but it is feeding the mindset of those people and we need to confront it.
	We need to ensure that we deal with people’s legitimate questions and concerns in prisons, for example about why strip searches should be carried out at the rate and in the form in which they are carried out. Whenever there is a clear modern technological alternative, that should be used. Rather than wasting time experimenting with the technology in other locations, it should be brought in where it is most needed and that is Maghaberry.

Ian Paisley Jnr: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that today the new BOSS— or body orifice security scanner—chair has been introduced into Northern Ireland, meaning that the number of full strip searches will be reduced? As a result, I understand, 20 dirty protestors have come off their dirty protests.

Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman is reinforcing my point, which I have made to people in the Northern Ireland Prison Service and to others, about my interventions and involvement and many other people’s, too. That is the point that we have been making; we want to see that argument disarmed.
	Similarly, when people raised serious health questions about the circumstances of prisoners such as Marian Price and latterly Gerry McGeough, we were trying to ensure that those issues were properly addressed. Any sentences duly imposed must be served, but, as with any prisoner, if any issue gives rise to thoughts about their release, it should at least be considered.

Naomi Long: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the points he is making and realise that he does so with great passion, but if we are going to disarm those who try to use the prison situation as a recruiting ground for dissident republicans, would it not be helpful if the SDLP, rather than making the case that such an approach is almost valid, stood with the Justice Minister and others to say that the processes are in place, that health assessments for those prisoners are received and that the proper actions are being taken, disabusing them of the notion in that way?

Mark Durkan: I can assure the hon. Lady that in any of the conversations I have, I disarm people of any prejudice they might have. Any assurance I can give them about the attitude of the prison service, the Minister, the overall regime or anything else, I give them. It is equally important that representatives reflect the issues and concerns they hear from families, however.
	There is also a point to make about where the dissidents are and where they hope to be. In my constituency, I see a number of different brands of dissident, but the one
	thing they have all been able to do in recent years is to get more young people to pick up their leaflets at events and to leave with some of their literature. We have had different brands of dissident. Some, such as those in RAAD—Republican Action Against Drugs—were seen for a number of years as policing dissidents, rather than political dissidents, as they did not disagree with the overall political project. Now they are disagreeing with the overall political project. They are finding each other and getting together, so there is some drift or mission creep among dissidents and we should not underestimate that.
	Just as the dissidents are getting together, we as democrats should show that we stand together in our political institutions. Whatever political differences we might air in the Assembly, in the Chamber today or anywhere else, they must see us standing shoulder to shoulder behind the democratic opportunities mandated by the Irish people north and south, unionist and nationalist. We do not pretend that our problems are all behind us; the opportunities are all ahead of us and we can seize them by working and standing together.

William McCrea: This has been a very helpful debate. We have been outlining the positives that we all recognise in Northern Ireland, yet we have also highlighted the dangers that still face many of the law-abiding citizens in our constituencies. We are thankful that things are not as they used to be; nevertheless, we must not let our guard down, and we must not be complacent. Although many, including those within Government, call these terrorists dissidents, let us not forget that many of these same terrorists were players trained in the knowledge and practice of terrorism by the Provisional IRA leadership.
	Before dealing specifically with the motion, I acknowledge the valuable contributions by many across the House, raising their voices in condemnation of the brutal murder of Mr David Black, a gentle man whom I had the privilege of knowing personally, being from the town in which I was educated; it formed part of my former constituency of Mid Ulster, which I represented in the House for 14 and a half years. Sadly, since 1997 that constituency has never had a voice in the House. The only beneficiaries are the coffers of Sinn Fein, without the obligation to give representation here.
	I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for his opening speech, in which he skilfully and professionally set out the backcloth for our motion. I also thank the other Members who participated. I thank the Secretary of State for her thoughtful speech, rightly identifying the remarkable progress, which few could ever have imagined, in Northern Ireland. I also noted that she acknowledged the arrest of two persons from Coalisland in relation to the murder of Mr David Black. I would remind her, however, that recently, buildings were found in which weapons of war were being hoarded, nearby in the same Coalisland area. It would be interesting to know how much public money was received to erect or to rent those properties. I think that deeper investigations should be considered. I think of the Secretary of State’s remarks as regards a number of terrorists that have
	been arrested; the prosecutions identify that that is not an insignificant terrorist group, but does indeed pose a terrorist threat.
	I thank the shadow Secretary of State for acknowledging that things have changed significantly, and that we have a confident Northern Ireland, which is confident on the world stage. The excellent announcement that the Prime Minister was able to make yesterday concerning the G8 proves that confidence, not only within Northern Ireland but within the United Kingdom, as the Prime Minister projects Northern Ireland across the world in bringing world leaders to our Province. I also thank the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) for his participation, and the personal knowledge that he has expressed in this matter.
	The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) made a valuable intervention on the inventory of terrorist weaponry—because we do need the greatest possible transparency—and on a garden of remembrance for prison officers. Those are salient matters that needed to be brought up in the debate, and I thank her for doing so. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) pointed to the remarkable achievements. However, we should not underestimate the capacity of republicans to create serious problems to life and property, while bearing in mind the significant events of the past year. Thankfully, those events put us on the world stage for the right reason. We look forward to more remarkable events that are planned for the future.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) pointed out that most Members of the House know nothing of what it is to have to look under their cars and to exercise personal security because one happens to be deemed to be an opponent of the republican terrorists. I think that is a fact that many in the House have never grasped, even in the darkest days of our Province.
	I thank the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). We certainly do not want to point Northern Ireland back into the dark ages we came through, but I can assure her that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Executive will work with her party’s Minister and leader, Mr Ford, and Security Minister, Mr Porter, in the efforts to give political leadership to the PSNI and the Prison Service at this challenging time.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) spoke about the harrowing times past and the miracle of the present situation. We grandparents never want to see our grandchildren—I am proud to say that I have nine—go through the dark days that my children had to go through in our home, under constant threat from the terrorists in Northern Ireland.
	To the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) I say that I accept that there is no acceptable level of violence—there never was; there never will be. Terrorism was an evil in our midst and terrorism is an evil in our midst. All must equally condemn it and none must be allowed to sanitise the evil of the past.
	Although I disagreed with some of the remarks made by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), I suggest to her that when one has the opportunity, and uses it quite often, to give insults, it is always best to be able to take criticism when criticism is due. That is a good lesson, I think. There is a lesson in her evidence on why her colleagues in certain places supported McGeough,
	who tried to murder my colleague on Dungannon and South Tyrone council. The lesson of the past is this: you cannot go soft on terrorists; you cannot go soft on those who have actually gone through the courts, and when they have done so, they certainly have to spend the time in prison—

Margaret Ritchie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

William McCrea: Yes, as I did mention the hon. Lady.

Margaret Ritchie: I remind the hon. Gentleman of one person who died, obviously in tragic circumstances, with whom certain people had associations: Mr Billy Wright.

William McCrea: I would say that that is a very serious charge, which proves it is an appalling charge, a lying charge, and a charge that should not have been made in this House. I say to the hon. Lady that I was a member—

Margaret Ritchie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

William McCrea: No, I will not. I was a member of Magherafelt district council. When young soldiers were murdered at Warrenpoint, it was an SDLP member—it is recorded in the minutes of the council—who said, “I will not shed a tear over the murder of those soldiers at Warrenpoint.”

Margaret Ritchie: Who said that?

William McCrea: He did, an SDLP member. It is recorded in the minutes. When challenged about why he would say such a thing, he replied, “Because they weren’t Irish.” That was despicable. I am happy for the hon. Lady to look at the minutes of the council, way back in Magherafelt. I was there; she was not.
	The DUP motion rightly commences with our expression of deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black. His murder represents an attack on society as a whole. I was stunned on hearing the tragic news of the despicable murder of another innocent victim of IRA terrorism. David was a public servant who gave honourable and unstinting service to the Prison Service. Unlike the cowards who murdered him, David exemplified all that is good in Ulster people, doing his duty with integrity, decency and bravery. We all know that a car with Dublin registration plates pulled up alongside David as he travelled between Portadown and Lurgan on the M1 motorway, and David was shot dead—in other words, he was brutally murdered.
	Unlike most, if not all, Members of this House, I had the personal privilege of knowing David. I counted him and his wife’s family circle as personal friends. He was a loving husband to Yvonne, a devoted father to Kyle and Kara, and a caring son and brother. The murderers did not care about those excellent characteristics and credentials of David Black. All they had was a lust for blood; vile murder was in their hearts. To Yvonne, Kyle, Kara, his elderly parents and his sister, I offer my heart-felt sympathy, having walked the lonely pathway to the graveside of my own loved ones.
	This was a cold-blooded and callous murder, but it must be remembered that the murders of the other 29 prison officers who were butchered by terrorists, mainly the Provisional IRA, were, too. Those who murdered all the prison officers, police officers, Ulster
	Defence Regiment members and innocent civilians are equally repugnant and evil. No elevation to high office or elected office can remove the stain from their conscience or erase the record from the eternal book, which will be opened on the day of judgment before the Almighty Judge and justice will finally be handed out.
	I congratulate the Black family on the dignity that they have displayed before, during and after David’s funeral. I pray that God will give them strength day by day to face the future, but I can assure them that that is not easy. They have made it clear to all that they do not desire revenge, but they do want justice to be done and those responsible to be found guilty.
	Republican terrorists will not be satisfied with the murders of Constable Stephen Carroll and Ronan Kerr or those of Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at the Massereene barracks in my constituency, or with the attempted murder of my constituent, Constable Peadar Heffron, or the numerous failed attempts on the lives of several members of the security forces. No, they are a part of the death squads of hate, and therefore the law-abiding community has a right to look to the Government for security and protection.
	I appreciate that policing was devolved to Stormont, but national security, including for the people of Northern Ireland, is still the responsibility of this House. Therefore, it is important that a united voice goes out from this House in condemnation of the violence that is daily being planned by various republican terrorist groups against the vast majority of people, who simply desire to build a peaceful future. Indeed, many are finding it hard to cope with the economic downturn across Europe and face challenges with regard to daily living, including the possibility of some having to join the unemployment queues for the first time ever in their lives. When I look across the Province, I see enough suffering, sickness and hurt among families, and I cannot comprehend why some simply spend their energies scheming evil, desiring only to add grief, harassment, intimidation, terror and murder to our community.
	We in Northern Ireland are resilient people. Indeed, we have proved this. We withstood more than 30 years of Provisional IRA bombs and bullets and resolutely faced them to achieve our right to remain part of this United Kingdom. Our legitimacy as Unionists, unlike what the hon. Member for Foyle has said, is not that the Unionist people of Northern Ireland desire to be part of the United Kingdom, but that Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales desire to be part of that United Kingdom. That is our legitimacy and it will be proven shortly, when the referendum comes to pass and the people of Scotland realise that we are stronger together than we would be apart. However, we need help. We urgently need the Government here to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to provide the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and police officers in general, both serving and ex-members.
	About two years ago, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed additional access to Treasury reserves—£200 million—over a four-year period to assist in the fight against republican terrorist groups. I appreciate that two years’ worth of money has been drawn down and that another two years’ worth is to follow, but the threat has not diminished in our Province to the point that we may not need extra money
	from the Treasury reserve fund. I therefore ask the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to give a commitment that as long as the security situation demands, additional funds from the Treasury reserve will be available to allow the police service to plan for the necessary equipment and personnel.
	We also need to be assured that all necessary measures will be taken to combat and defeat the threat posed by terrorist organisations. We must not let our Province slip back into the cycle of murder and mayhem. We must therefore be determined to protect our community.
	In conclusion, perhaps a few practical suggestions would be helpful. Many former prison and police officers live in vulnerable areas of the Province, and yet they have had their personal protection weapons removed. That is disgraceful. Many people, at the end of their sterling service through years of terrorism and intimidation, have been told to hand over their PPWs and have had the security measures removed from their homes. In their place, they have been handed a leaflet on personal protection. Will the Minister tell the House how many PPWs have been removed from former police officers, prison officers and personnel of the Ulster Defence Regiment or Royal Irish Regiment?
	A few weeks ago, the Home Office stated that the threat from dissident IRA groups had reduced on the mainland. I welcome that, but we need to be careful in how we communicate such news. These sick, murdering maniacs can consider such language as putting it up to them and it can therefore be counter-productive. Indeed, it was after that announcement that my friend, David Black, was brutally murdered.
	Although we must highlight the security threat, we must also put on the record how pleased we are to have the opportunity to welcome the world leaders of the G8 to our beautiful Province. I assure them and this House that our Province has much to offer. We will do all within our power to ensure that the world knows that Northern Ireland is and will continue to be, irrespective of any terrorist threat, open for business.

Michael Penning: It is an honour and a privilege to stand here as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. I have taken questions in this capacity, but this is my first debate.
	May I say at the outset that even though there may be disagreements across the House—and we have seen a tiny bit of that today—we all want peace in Northern Ireland? The peace process has given us the ability to sit in this Chamber and discuss, fairly rationally, a difficult situation. In the past, that would have been more difficult or would not have happened at all. It certainly would not have taken place in the tone that we have heard today.
	May I also, at the outset, place on the record my thoughts and prayers for the family of David Black? I was at his funeral with the Secretary of State, the shadow Secretary of State and other Members. It was one of the most moving funerals that I have ever attended. The way in which his children—they probably will not like my calling them children at their age, and I
	will probably get into trouble with my own daughter for calling them children—held themselves together to pay tribute to their father was enormously moving, as I said a few moments ago.
	Although I was not at Enniskillen, I was at Corporal Day’s funeral. If had known that the First Minister was flying down, I would have flown down with him so that I could have been at both. However, it might have been a tight squeeze. In the next debate, I will perhaps make some further comments on Corporal Day and her loved ones.
	The debate was rightly opened by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). In his wide-ranging speech, which has been reiterated by many other Members, the main thing that he called on Her Majesty’s Government to do was to be steadfast and give a long-term commitment to stamping out terrorism in Northern Ireland, no matter which side it comes from. We give that commitment today, as have the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State on previous occasions.
	Yesterday, the Prime Minister reiterated the point at meetings with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and told them, “As your Chief Constable said, you need more.” I said exactly the same to the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister, David Ford, and the Secretary of State has also said that. We meet regularly; my door is permanently open, my phone is on, and we can talk about many of the issues that we need to discuss. If there is a need, however, we will address it.
	There has been much discussion of the £200 million from the contingency fund. That money has been on a two-year draw-down. A lot of it was drawn down early as it had to be for capital projects—what I call capital projects are slightly different from what others call them and include vehicles as well as buildings. We also needed money for people and ongoing revenue costs. The Government are working with David Ford and the Chief Constable to look at exactly how that money was spent, so that we can go back to the Treasury and say, “See, we need this funding again—or we will do in three years’ time.” We do not need a brand new vehicle straight away, but that time will come. There is CCTV—technology moves on very fast, and we must ensure there is something in the pot for that. If we go back to the Treasury, it will probably not be for contingency funding. We would not do that in a normal spending round and would keep spending within the allocation.
	We are, however, conscious that there are exceptional circumstances, particularly at the moment. The group likes to be called the “new IRA”, but that is the last time I will stand at the Dispatch Box and say that because there is nothing new about thuggery, murderers and people of that description. We give them oxygen by giving them that badge—they may think it is a badge of honour but it is exactly the opposite. Those people are thugs and murderers who are living in the past. They are trying to drag people—a lot of them young people—into what went on in the past, and we must do everything possible to address that.
	There have been 16 contributions, 11 of which were not interventions but proper speeches. I will not be able to answer every question raised, but my officials have diligently taken notes and I will write to right hon. and hon. Members if I do not address their particular points now. One of the final points raised concerned
	how many personal protection weapons have been removed. I have been in this job for three and a half months but I do not know that figure off the top of my head. It was probably an obvious question and I should have had a response ready, but I will write to the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and let him know.
	The process is quite simple. There is an appeals process and a decision is made by the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland either for a new weapon or for a weapons licence to be renewed. If that is declined, the case is referred to me on appeal. I assure hon. Members that I look at every individual case—I have had quite a few in the first couple of weeks, and think I might see some more.
	I raised personal protection weapons when I met the head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, and I will soon meet a representative of the Prison Officers Association, which I phoned the following day. The head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service told me categorically that any prison officer who needs a weapon will get one or has got one.
	A lot of prison officers were not taking their weapons home. The issue of complacency was touched on during the debate, and I will come on to people checking their vehicles and so on in a moment. A lot of weapons were being left in the armoury at work and not being taken home. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We need to reiterate people’s personal responsibilities, as well as those of the state and employers. I concur with what was said about people having things taken away and being given a piece of paper, and more needs to be done on that. I know, for instance, that the PSNI has already visited and is giving seminars and doing work with prison officers to increase their awareness and ensure that measures are in place to help them.
	In the last couple of months I have also looked carefully at home protection. I met Lord Carlile, the Chief Constable and David Ford to look at that issue, and we will look carefully at having a more level playing field. I do not care who someone is employed by; if they are doing a job, protecting people and are at risk, the situation should be the same for everyone. The system does not operate that way at the moment, and we will look carefully at the issue.
	I could not go further without addressing the two points made in interventions by my friend the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—[ Interruption. ] She is a friend to me. First, on a commemoration for the 30 prison officers, it would be right and proper for us to have a round-table discussion with all interested people. I recently opened a new memorial in my constituency to those who have fallen since the second world war. The memorial, which was unveiled the day before Remembrance day this year, was provided by public donation. We could certainly look at her suggestion and have that discussion.
	Secondly, on how much weaponry was taken away, the Prime Minister has said in the House that we do not have the list—it is not within the Government’s archives. The Secretary of State has offered to meet the hon. Lady, and we can see how that goes, but we genuinely do not have the list to release. The Prime Minister has said that, and I have had it checked during the debate.

Lady Hermon: I thank the Minister very much indeed for agreeing to a round-table discussion on a memorial garden for those 30 prison officers, which is wholly appropriate. I would hope that Finlay Spratt and others will be there.
	On the inventory of decommissioned weapons, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that the Government appear not to have the document, but will he kindly confirm what is believed, which is that the document, the inventories and the details are kept in the university of Boston in America? Will the Minister clarify that if I were an academic, I could go to Boston and have open access to the inventories, but the people of Northern Ireland, and the MPs representing Northern Ireland, cannot see them? That is ludicrous.

Michael Penning: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and am pleased about the work we will look to do on the memorial.
	On decommissioned weapons, the hon. Lady said earlier that we must not hide behind the independent body. Look at the size of me—I could not behind anybody! I am not hiding behind anything. I will discuss the matters the hon. Lady has mentioned with my officials, but I personally do not know where the hell those details are. She is much better informed than I, given the short time I have been in this job. The Secretary of State and officials will talk this through with the hon. Lady when they meet, but I have to go with the information I have been given.
	Hon. Members have spoken of the terrible, appalling murder of David Black not only because it was a terrible murder, but because of how it was done. One thing that the police and forensics are looking at is exactly where that high-velocity weapon came from and where it has been stored. We know the weapon, but we do not know where it has been stored. Hon. Members have mentioned close protection weapons, but based on the evidence we have seen so far, David Black would not have been saved by one. Anyone willing to put so many people’s lives at risk by driving at speed on a motorway at 7.30 am while opening up with a high-velocity weapon shows a lack of care for other people that beggars belief.
	Interestingly, those people are a bunch of cowards—they do not want to get hurt themselves but they put other people in the position of getting hurt—and they do not want to get caught, but their action was very risky. It is important that we try to understand where these dissident republicans are going rather than thinking back to the past and learning what they used to do. Some of their technology and methodology has not changed, but some things they are starting to do are different—probably out of desperation, but who knows?
	I have promised to write to hon. Members if I do not deal with their points now, but in the one minute remaining I want to reiterate what the Prime Minister said yesterday when he was in Northern Ireland. It is significant that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom went to Northern Ireland to meet people in the very successful factory where they work. I got trapped with the owners on the plane coming back. They were so chuffed—it was absolutely brilliant for them to meet the Prime Minister and for their staff to have that personal contact. The Prime Minister reiterated—as did the Secretary of State—that we will work with the Opposition. We
	will work with anyone, and if some of these groups, on any side, want to meet me, I am more than happy to meet them anywhere. It is really important that we engage with them and try to dispel the concept that they could win anything by such actions. We need to work together, and we will give everything necessary, in security terms and in cost terms, to the PSNI and the other security services to ensure that the people of Northern Ireland go forward, not back into the terrible abyss of before.
	Question put and agreed to.
	Resolved,
	That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to members of the prison service and the security forces generally, and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland.

Military Covenant

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I beg to move,
	That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the full implementation of the military covenant in each region of the United Kingdom.
	It is an honour to lead off in this debate on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House. At the outset, I want to pay tribute to all of our service personnel from across the United Kingdom, and indeed from other countries, who serve in our armed forces. I also pay tribute to the veterans who have served this country with great distinction. In Northern Ireland, we hold our armed forces in very high esteem, and we have seen in recent years—during the time of the troubles—how the armed forces were on the front line, standing in the gap between the general public and those whose objective was to create mayhem and undermine the democratic process.
	We have also seen our armed forces in action in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan. We understand the sacrifice that they make, and the sacrifices made by their families—by those left behind at home, the husbands, wives and children of members of our armed forces. That is important in the context of this debate, because the military covenant should not just be about the personnel who serve or have served: it includes their families.
	Like all right hon. and hon. Members, I stood beside the war memorial in Lisburn in my constituency on 11 November as we honoured the dead of two world wars and of the conflicts that have occurred since the second world war. I watched as my constituent Ian Walker, his wife Rhoda and their sons, Kyle and Ross, laid a wreath in memory of Corporal Stephen Walker, who served with 40 Commando in Afghanistan and was killed in action in May 2010. Although Stephen had been living in Scotland with his family, he was from Lisburn and our community saluted his memory. We stood with Ian and his family as they remembered their dear loved one, and this was repeated in many places across the United Kingdom.
	It was good to see that representatives of the Irish Government were present at some of the war memorials in Northern Ireland to mark the fact that many people from the Irish Republic served in the British Army during the great war in particular, which of course occurred before the Republic of Ireland left the United Kingdom. Indeed, some have served since then, and even today we have people from the Republic of Ireland in the modern British Army and the other services.

Naomi Long: Does the right hon. Gentleman share my hope that the leadership that has been shown by the Irish Government on remembrance may defuse some of the tensions in Northern Ireland around the implementation of the military covenant, which is still—sadly—a politicised issue?

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I thank the hon. Lady for that point and I will come on to that subject in the course of my remarks.

Gregory Campbell: Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the significant and beneficial effects of recent days has been the issue he has just raised? Many people in the Irish Republic, who for several generations were afraid to recognise, or were unaware of, the contribution made by many people in the Irish Republic to the armed forces, both here in the United Kingdom and in the Republic, in the fight against fascist Germany, are now beginning to recognise, realise and appreciate that?

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. I recently had the great honour of being appointed to the advisory board that is preparing for 2014 to 2018 and the United Kingdom’s commemorations of the great war. I have been giving some thought to how we might commemorate that period in Northern Ireland. It is important that people in the Irish Republic, and the Government of the Irish Republic, recognise the massive contribution made by thousands of Irish men, from the counties that now form the Irish Republic, who served in the British Army. Many served with great distinction, winning Victoria Crosses and other meritorious awards for their courage and bravery. For example, one thinks of Captain Redmond—the brother of the then leader of the Irish Nationalist party in this House, John Redmond—who served with distinction and sadly lost his life in the service of the Crown. Today, there are others from the Republic of Ireland who step up to the mark and join the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards and other units in the Army, and the other elements of the armed forces. They make a contribution that we value. It is good to see attitudes changing in the Republic of Ireland towards those who have served and who continue to serve in our armed forces.
	It would be remiss not to mention the name of Corporal Channing Day, to whom the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office referred in his closing remarks in the previous debate. She was a remarkable young woman, 25-years-old and serving with 3 Medical Regiment. The medics are often overlooked. Their courage and bravery in the face of extremely dangerous circumstances, seeking to save lives and rescue those who find themselves wounded as a result of combat, is often overlooked. I pay tribute to Corporal Day. I can do no better than repeat the comments of her sister Lauren at Channing’s funeral:
	“Channing loved the Army. If there was one thing she knew growing up, it was that she wanted to be a soldier, proven by the way she would march around the living room and she never missed cadets. She loved what she did and we are so proud of her. Channing grew up into the bravest, beautiful, determined woman, she has done more in her 25 years than most women her age and we are so very proud of everything she has achieved.”
	Today, we pay tribute to the men and women of our armed forces across the United Kingdom who daily place themselves in the line of fire not only for this nation, but for others across the world who need their protection.
	I want to also pay tribute not just to our regular armed forces, but to the reserve forces. In Northern Ireland, we are proud of the contribution that our reserve forces make to all elements of the armed forces in the United Kingdom. We are proud that despite the fact that Northern Ireland makes up approximately 3% of the UK population, we regularly provide more than 20% of the reserve forces on operational deployment.
	That is wonderful testimony to the men and women who step out of their day-to-day work, leave their families behind and serve the country overseas, often in very dangerous circumstances. In paying tribute to the reserve forces in Northern Ireland, I want to make particular mention of the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, which is especially active in Northern Ireland. Throughout the years of the troubles, it ensured that recruitment to the reserves continued even in some areas that might surprise hon. Members. That persists to this day. Most, if not all, of the reserve units in Northern Ireland are extremely well recruited. I hope that the Minister will have the opportunity—I know it is his intention—to visit some of those units in Northern Ireland. He will receive a very warm welcome.
	What is the purpose of this debate? I want briefly to set out some context. A recent report published by the World Health Organisation on post-traumatic stress disorder found that Northern Ireland had a higher incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than any other conflict-related country in the world. That included places such as Lebanon and Israel. It was remarkable that the study found that nearly 40% of people in Northern Ireland had been involved in some kind of conflict-related traumatic incident. The survey estimated that violence had been a distinctive cause of mental health problems for about 18,000 people in Northern Ireland. Against that backdrop, the health and social care services in Northern Ireland seek to provide a service to members of our armed forces and veterans from Northern Ireland. There is already a huge demand on these services from across Northern Ireland as a result of trauma-related illnesses arising from the conflict.
	Before I remark on the deficiencies in the service, I want to acknowledge that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, within the legislative constraints, has made efforts to ensure that a degree of priority is given to members of the armed forces and veterans in Northern Ireland when providing health and personal care. The Health Minister, Edwin Poots, is a constituency colleague and hails from Lagan Valley, and I do not wish to criticise him, because he is determined to ensure that our service personnel and veterans receive the level of support they require when they need it. His Department has established an armed forces liaison forum linked to the armed forces protocol, which has done valuable work in seeking to co-ordinate the health and social care response to the needs of service personnel and veterans living in Northern Ireland. In addition, the Department has worked with the reserve forces and cadets association and military charities to examine how services can be improved in line with the objectives of the military covenant.
	I also want to mention the Department for Social Development, where another of my colleagues, Nelson McCausland, is Minister for Social Development. The housing needs of those leaving the armed forces are taken into account under the housing selection scheme in Northern Ireland. That is important.
	I also want to praise the work of the aftercare service put in place specifically for those who served with the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment. Northern Irish Members fought hard to get that service in the period leading up to the disbandment of the home service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment.
	We worked with the previous Government towards the establishment of the service, because we recognised that one of the legacies of the troubles were the many people who had served in the armed forces in Northern Ireland over a prolonged period as part of Operation Banner, the longest-running military operation in the history of the British Army. These men and women had served constantly. It was not a matter of spending six months on operational deployment in Northern Ireland and then maybe not coming back for another two years. Rather, the Royal Irish Regiment, and the Ulster Defence Regiment before it, served continuously on military operations in Northern Ireland for a very long time—from the early 1970s through to the disbandment of the home service battalions—and was recognised for its service with the award of the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross by Her Majesty the Queen.
	The aftercare service is important. We believe that, in time, it is a model that other parts of the United Kingdom might seek to implement. It takes a hands-on approach, not just responding to the needs of soldiers with medical issues or welfare problems, but proactively engaging with people to ensure that their needs are met.

Sammy Wilson: My right hon. Friend has extensively described much of the support that is available to soldiers who have left the Army, but does he agree that, in the light of the Prime Minister, the Attorney-General and the Ministry of Defence yesterday turning their back on Danny Nightingale, the SAS soldier who has been imprisoned, many people will call into question just how much support soldiers get when they really are in trouble?

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. That was a rather long intervention and we have to be careful not to stray into areas that we do not really want to be discussing.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that case. I was going to allude to it, but I will say simply that it is important that post-traumatic stress disorder and medical conditions arising from military service are given due weight and recognition when military courts consider allegations made against soldiers. I know that this case is the subject of an appeal, so I will not go into the detail, save to say that we on these Benches wish Sergeant Nightingale well in seeking to appeal against the decision made in his case.
	The aftercare service provided to veterans of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment makes an important contribution towards ensuring that those who have served in Northern Ireland are provided with the care and support they need. I hope that the Government will continue to fund and resource the service properly, because it is important. Indeed, I hope that in time it can be expanded to include others.
	All that said, we on these Benches have a concern about the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland, and it is a concern expressed by others too. There are service personnel and veterans who are not getting the support they need in Northern Ireland. I speak of Northern Ireland because I am not mandated to speak of other areas of the UK, but I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members might
	mention instances in their areas of where the military covenant might not quite be delivering yet for service personnel and veterans.
	I want to give the House an example of an individual, who I have been trying to help, who has found himself in great difficulty. James Burns is a young man from Mallusk in County Antrim, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). James was formerly a lance corporal with 40 Commando. He had been on operational service in Afghanistan, returned to his family in Northern Ireland and developed post-traumatic stress disorder. Sadly, as a result of his illness he turned to alcohol. As a result of the lethal mix of alcohol and his medical condition, he developed violent behaviour and got himself into trouble, harming himself and those around him. Only a few months after his military career ended, he is sadly now in prison serving a sentence.
	I just feel that there is something wrong with a system in which a soldier comes home from operational deployment to his family and, within months, finds himself serving a prison sentence for behaviour that he and his family would argue might have been beyond his control because of his medical condition. I am not trying to excuse what James has done, and his family do not seek to do so either. What they are seeking is help for that young man. He has a young family, and they do not want to see his life completely ruined. There is clearly more that we can do to help young men like James—and, indeed, young women—who develop post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of the traumatic experiences that they have had to endure while on operational deployment.

Nigel Dodds: The case to which my right hon. Friend refers is known to me, and I too have spoken to the father of the young man in question. I totally endorse what my right hon. Friend has said: the family’s plea was for help. They could see what was happening and they really wanted help. It is incumbent on us in the House and those in the Department to ensure that that help is made available to families such as these; they deserve it.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I concur with my right hon. Friend’s comments.
	In August this year, I wrote to the Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) at the Ministry of Defence to raise this case. I understand that, owing to issues relating to data protection legislation, he was unable to respond in as much detail as he might have wished. His advice was that James should
	“contact the welfare service at the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency.”
	He provided a helpline number for that service. He went on:
	“I would also strongly encourage James to raise any medical concerns…with his GP…James may also wish to consider contacting the charity Combat Stress”.
	I am sure that there is nothing wrong with that advice, but my point is that there should be someone in the system who can get alongside people like James, who are not in a position to make the appropriate judgment calls, and to help them and their families to get access to the level of care that they need. That advice was given before James ended up in prison.
	Returning to my remarks about the aftercare service, I believe that that model could be expanded. As a starting point, I would like to see it expanded in Northern Ireland to incorporate those service personnel and veterans who continue to serve in our armed forces, whether in the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards or any other armed forces unit, and who reside in Northern Ireland. Why should Northern Ireland get such special treatment? We should do so because we have a special problem when it comes to the implementation of the military covenant.
	That special problem is section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998—the equality legislation that formed a key element of the Belfast agreement. The section places a statutory duty on public authorities to promote equality when carrying out their functions in relation to Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, officials in various Government Departments in Northern Ireland who might be able to offer support to veterans and service personnel say that they are unable to give any form of preferential treatment.
	Let us bear it in mind that the military covenant requires only that action should be taken to ensure that a veteran or a member of the armed forces should face “no disadvantage” as a result of serving or having served in the armed forces. In other words, they should be placed in the position in which they would have been, had they remained a civilian. Unfortunately, however, section 75 is being used in a way that can prevent full implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland. We have a problem, but there are a number of ways in which that problem could be overcome.
	In a submission to the Defence Committee of this House, of which I have the good fortune to be a member, it was made clear by the current Northern Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Edwin Poots, that there was a problem. Paragraph 36 of the Defence Committee report, “The Armed Forces Covenant in Action? Part 1: Military Casualties”, states:
	“The provisions of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 prevents the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (DHSSPS) and the Health and Social Care (HSC) sector in Northern Ireland in providing war veterans with priority over other individuals with respect to healthcare treatment.”
	This is recognised as a problem, as far as the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland is concerned. The “Report of the Task Force on the Military Covenant” of September 2010 stated that “Service personnel” based in Northern Ireland
	“are disadvantaged more than their contemporaries elsewhere…For example, Service families in the province are prevented from identifying themselves as such due to the security situation. This can cause difficulties for partners in explaining their career history to prospective employers and for Service children in obtaining the necessary support in schools, among other issues.”
	The report, in making some recommendations, states:
	“One possibility currently under consideration is to extend”
	the Northern Ireland aftercare service
	“to cover all veterans based in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland”.
	We Democratic Unionist Members would be happy to see veterans of the UK armed forces who reside in the Republic of Ireland covered by the aftercare service, so that they get the help they need when they need it. I hope the Minister will give careful consideration to the proposition that the aftercare service should be extended
	to include not only veterans living in Northern Ireland but serving members of the armed forces who live in Northern Ireland and, for whatever reason, may require treatment or access to other services for themselves or their families.

Bob Stewart: I have received two letters from former southern Irish soldiers who served in the British Army asking that they be given the same rights under the military covenant as their compatriots living within the United Kingdom. I think that is a good idea; it should come almost as part of the package. I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend says.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend. We both serve on the Defence Committee. I have great respect for his knowledge and understanding of the armed forces—not least because of the time he served in Northern Ireland. I know he is due to come back to the Province in the near future; we will welcome him very warmly indeed.
	I have suggested that the Northern Ireland aftercare service should be expanded to provide support to all veterans living in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland who have served with our armed forces and to the service personnel who reside in Northern Ireland and whose families are based there at present.
	Another way of addressing the problem of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act and the impediment it provides to the implementation of the military covenant in the part of the United Kingdom that I represent is to consider legislation to grant an exemption to any action taken under section 75 by a Government Department in Northern Ireland pursuant to the implementation of the military covenant. We will want to discuss that further with the Ministry of Defence and the Northern Ireland Office. We believe it is important that no obstacle should be put in the way of implementing the military covenant. I know that when section 75 was implemented it was never intended to have such a consequence—but it does, so we need to fix the problem.
	I know, too, that the Minister, in recent comments to the Welsh Affairs Committee highlighted the particular challenge in Northern Ireland of implementing the community covenant. Some local authorities in Northern Ireland are controlled by Sinn Fein. Unfortunately, too, there seems to be some reticence on the part of the SDLP when it comes to implementation of the military covenant. As hon. Members have said, let us hope that that is loosening up and that people are now beginning to recognise the fact that, ultimately, we are talking about human beings. We are talking about men and women who need help and support, and it should not matter that they wear the uniform of this country. When they need that support, it should be given to them. I should like some Northern Ireland Members to adopt a slightly more humanitarian approach to the issue.
	As the Minister pointed out when he gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee on 30 October, some local authorities in Northern Ireland seem reluctant to support the full implementation of the covenant. We shall want to discuss with the Government ways in which community covenants can be implemented throughout Northern Ireland without being impeded by certain elements in local government.
	I also think that there is a great need for some kind of respite facility for the armed forces in Northern Ireland. At present, a veteran or current member of the armed forces living in Northern Ireland who is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and needs recuperation must go to Hollybush House in Scotland. I should like the Government to work with the military charities, the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, and other stakeholders in Northern Ireland to find a way of resourcing a respite centre there.

Lady Hermon: May I suggest that a respite centre in Northern Ireland might not always be a suitable alternative to Hollybush House? Some members of the Army might feel a certain sensitivity about receiving respite care in Northern Ireland. I was extremely concerned to learn from some of my constituents who are retired servicemen that their opportunities to benefit from recuperation and help at Hollybush House have been reduced because resources are not going into that facility. I should be hugely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he would call for increased resources for Hollybush House as well.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I can only echo what the hon. Lady has said. I agree that there should be adequate resources not just for a proposed facility for Northern Ireland, but for other facilities for veterans and members of the Northern Ireland armed forces. I take her point that not all of them would want to receive their respite care in Northern Ireland itself.

Jim Shannon: The week before last, I had an opportunity to meet a gentleman from Help for Heroes, a charity of which every Member present will be aware. When I mentioned this very issue to him, he said that although the organisation currently made no such provision specifically for Northern Ireland, it was seeking to do so, and I hope that that will be possible in the near future.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend for that information. It is worth noting that the people of Northern Ireland are very generous when it comes to military charities. Year on year, Northern Ireland consistently gives more to the poppy appeal than any other region of the United Kingdom, and Help for Heroes is well supported there. We receive a share of that, and we do not in any way criticise any of the military charities. However, it would be good to see those charities unite with the Government, the RFCA and others in considering what enhanced facilities we might provide in Northern Ireland. That would constitute recognition of the generosity of the people there who support them.
	I said earlier that we would meet Ministers to pursue the issues that I have raised. We have already met the Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), and we should be happy to meet the Minister of State and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office as well. Thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), we have secured a meeting with the Prime Minister early in December, when we will discuss with him matters relating to the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland.
	Her Majesty’s Government have a duty to support the armed forces and the veterans who have served this country so well, and we support them in pursuing the work that they are undertaking in relation to the military covenant. No political obstacle and no political party should get in the way of full implementation of the covenant in every region of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. I commend the motion to the House.

Mr Speaker: I now have to announce the result of the deferred Division on the question relating to the draft Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations 2012. The Ayes were 283, and the Noes were 203, so the Ayes have it.
	[The Division list is published at the end of today’s debates.]

Mark Francois: I greatly welcome the opportunity to open this important debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government. It is a particular pleasure to respond to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). As he knows, I have taken an interest in Northern Ireland matters down the years. In fact, some years ago I visited Northern Ireland as his guest. We are debating a serious subject, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not mind my telling the House that I also bumped into him in 2009, when I was in Northern Ireland during the European elections. We were each separately with our respective campaign teams when we came around the same corner. As politicians do on these occasions, we exchanged some banter, and one of the right hon. Gentleman’s fellow campaigners described me as a “communist.” I have been called a number of things down the years, but that was a personal first for me. I have happy memories of that trip, and I was determined when I saw this debate coming up to get that quote into Hansard.
	Let me begin by saying that we greatly value the contribution that all our armed forces make, and in particular that made by the Irish regiments over the years. The right hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues rightly touched on that. As evidence of this contribution, one statistic stands out. Some 173 Victoria Crosses have been awarded to members of the armed forces who were Irish. That is more than one in eight of all such awards, including the first ever Victoria Cross, which was awarded to Charles Lucas from Scarva—in the constituency of the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson)—which he earned while serving as a mate on HMS Hecla in 1854. Following a swift promotion to captain, Charles Lucas eventually retired at the rank of rear-admiral. So that is a not a bad start for the VC.
	Continuing this naval theme, I should like to mention HMS Caroline, about which there has been good news following our decision to gift the vessel to the National Museum of the Royal Navy. It has agreed to keep the vessel in Belfast, where it has been berthed since 1924.

Oliver Colvile: HMS Caroline was built in the Devonport dockyard and it is the last surviving ship from the battle of Jutland, at which my grandfather was a gunnery officer on HMS Valiant. This is incredibly good news, therefore, and I will make sure everybody in Plymouth rejoices.

Mark Francois: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s grandfather and his service in that epic battle, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for being so fleet of foot with his intervention.
	As my hon. Friend has taken a close interest in this ship, he will know that HMS Caroline, a light cruiser, was built in 1914, measures 128 metres and was capable of a top speed of 28.5 knots. She is the last surviving warship of the battle of Jutland and before decommissioning was the second oldest ship in the Royal Navy. Her parts are 85% original—which is more than can be said for some Members of this House—and she is the only vessel in the world from the time of the great war still to have its original engines. A recent National Heritage Memorial Fund grant of £1 million, supplemented by £100,000 from the Northern Ireland Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, will enable urgent repairs to be carried out on the vessel. We very much hope that she will be open to paying visitors by the centenary of the battle of Jutland in 2016 and, together with the Titanic centre, will be a focus for tourism around Belfast’s great maritime history.

Nigel Dodds: The Minister mentioned his previous visits to Northern Ireland. He will be permanently and for ever welcome in Northern Ireland as a result of the good news about HMS Caroline—the Prime Minister announced it but the Minister followed up recently. This has been an excellent example of working together between Whitehall, the Northern Ireland Executive and my colleague Arlene Foster, Belfast city council and the Friends of HMS Caroline. This fantastic news has been warmly welcomed throughout Belfast and Northern Ireland, and we say well done to the Government.

Mark Francois: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words. I have to report to the House that there has been a leak, because my speech says, “This has been an excellent example of practical co-operation between the Ministry of Defence, the national museum of the Royal Navy and the Northern Ireland Executive.” He also rightly mentioned the friends group. In all seriousness, this is one where everybody got it right. It is proper and appropriate that HMS Caroline remains in Belfast, and I hope to be able to visit her at some point in the near future. So I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words and the spirit in which they are offered.
	In more recent times, the contribution of those who served alongside the Army in the former Royal Ulster Constabulary has also been remembered, most notably through the awarding of the George Cross to the RUC. I also pay tribute today to the work of the Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation and the Northern Ireland Police Fund, which look after former members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and current members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland so well. In the same vein, I should like to pay tribute to the veterans of the Royal Irish Regiment and its home service battalions and the Ulster Defence Regiment. It is for them that the bespoke Royal Irish aftercare service, to which the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) rightly paid tribute, is in operation. Funded by the Ministry of Defence, that important organisation has supported a client population of up to 63,000 veterans in the delivery of psychiatry, physiotherapy and welfare casework. I will
	undertake to look at his suggestion as to whether that service could be extended to other members of the armed forces in Northern Ireland, but I must enter the obvious caveat that that is subject to resource constraints. So we will look at that, but standing at the Dispatch Box this evening I cannot guarantee a positive outcome.
	Such proud traditions of service continue right up to the present generation. I, too, should mention the sad death of Corporal Channing Day, who grew up in Northern Ireland and joined the Army in 2005. Corporal Day, who served with 3 Medical Regiment, died alongside Corporal David O’Connor, of 40 Commando, after being injured on patrol in Helmand province on Wednesday 24 October. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) had the privilege of attending her funeral service, which was said to have been the largest that the small church had seen in some 400 years. I pay tribute to Corporal Day and Corporal O’Connor this evening, and in doing so I echo a number of the tributes that have been paid by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues tonight.
	In terms of current operations, I should also like to mention the personnel of 204 field hospital, who are shortly about to deploy from Northern Ireland to Afghanistan to serve as part of the role 3 hospital at Camp Bastion and to provide other medical services to troops in theatre. I recently had the privilege of visiting Camp Bastion and the hospital, and I laid a wreath to commemorate those who had fallen in operations in Afghanistan.
	I should now like to turn directly to the armed forces covenant. As the House knows, its key principles are enshrined in law in the Armed Forces Act 2011. I am proud to say that the Government published the covenant in May 2011. In essence, its principles are: that those who serve in the armed forces, whether regular or reserve, and those who have served in the past, and their families should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services; and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most, such as the injured and the bereaved. The covenant extends to the armed forces community, which is defined as serving personnel, including members of the reserve forces; veterans; and their families. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his generous tribute to the reserves as well as to the regulars.

John Glen: Will the Minister take time to consider the interaction between the MOD and the Department for Work and Pensions on benefit payments and armed forces compensation scheme payments? The compensation scheme payments invalidate claimants’ eligibility for some DWP payments, which seems very wrong. Special consideration should be given in such circumstances.

Mark Francois: I am aware of the issue and pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his persistence on these and related matters. We had an Adjournment debate recently on a parallel issue, although not exactly the same one. I believe that we are doing what we can to try to solve the problem, but as it is quite technical, as he knows, if he wants to write to me on the specific points I would be happy to look into them and get back to him.
	In common with other legislation, the provisions of the 2011 Act extend to Northern Ireland in the same way as they apply to all other parts of the United Kingdom. Those principles are important because they influence the formation of policy, but there are other sides to the covenant, too. One of those is the community covenant, which seeks to bring together local authorities and other local organisations with members of the armed forces community who live and serve in the area for which they are responsible. To date, more than 200 local authorities across the United Kingdom have signed a community covenant. I am proud to say that in Essex the other day, I signed that covenant on behalf of the Government in my own county, and some 13 local authorities signed one after the other.
	We are clear that by forging such relationships the community covenant is starting to have a positive impact on the lives of the armed forces community and on the wider community. For example, in Gateshead the council is making arrangements, among many other measures, to explore opportunities for serving personnel and veterans to access leisure facilities to support their overall health and well-being needs, including their mental health needs.
	In Oxfordshire, the county council, by working with the NHS and 145 (South) Brigade, has been able to help resolve problems of access to GPs and dentists for the families of serving personnel. Dental services have also been extended in some areas to address a shortfall and the referral process for primary care services has been made easier.
	Also in Oxfordshire, the local authority has arranged for school places to be allocated to service families in advance of the family’s actual move, based on a letter from the relevant unit. That has been a long-standing problem when military units move from one location to another, but I understand that the Department for Education is now encouraging other local authorities to take a similar approach to try to alleviate the difficulty.
	In the past, members of the armed forces could also be pushed towards the bottom of local housing waiting lists, as the need to move from base to base often meant they could not prove a local connection to the area in which they wanted to live, but, thanks again to the armed forces covenant, many local councils will now ensure that due consideration is given to service families so that they are not at a disadvantage when applying for a council home. That extends to serving people, families and, importantly, veterans.
	One of the chief benefits of the community covenant is quite simply that people are now talking to one another in a way that they never did before. To some degree, we are doing that in the House this evening. Local authorities, which deliver many of the vital services at ground level, are being made aware of the needs of the armed forces community, which they might not have considered fully in the past. At the same time, it is fair to say that service personnel and their families are becoming increasingly aware of what life is like beyond the wire and how they can help their local communities.
	As the House knows, the 2011 Act also places an obligation on the Secretary of State for Defence to report annually to Parliament on the state of the armed forces covenant. The first of these statutory reports will
	be published before Christmas and will set out in more detail what the Government are doing to deliver in the key areas that the covenant covers.
	I now want to speak about extending the armed forces covenant to Northern Ireland. Hon. and right hon. Members from Northern Ireland will be aware that many of the main areas covered by the covenant, such as housing, health and education, all lie within the devolved field and that these services are provided by Northern Ireland Departments, which are answerable to Northern Ireland Ministers in the Executive, not all of whom currently support this agenda, as the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley intimated.
	Northern Ireland Departments and other public authorities also need to give due regard to the statutory obligations placed on them by section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act to promote equality of opportunity in respect of all the functions they perform and the services they provide. Herein, as it were, lies the dilemma. It is not for Westminster to tell Stormont what it must do in respect of the covenant—it is for Northern Ireland Executive Ministers to debate and negotiate and agree how the armed forces covenant should apply in Northern Ireland to the extent permitted by law.
	There are some who say that section 75 is a hindrance and should be amended to somehow allow the covenant to be applied. Of course we want to see the armed forces covenant principles applied right across the United Kingdom. However, if the Northern Ireland Executive decides not to proceed with the covenant, that does not justify amending section 75, which is one of the cornerstones in the architecture of the Belfast agreement that was endorsed in referendums in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
	I think it is fair to say that Northern Ireland has made great progress since the dark days of the troubles. This month we saw the Taoiseach lay a wreath at the war memorial in Enniskillen following on from the historic wreath layings—both at the garden of remembrance in Dublin and at the Irish war memorial at Islandbridge—by Her Majesty the Queen during her highly successful state visit last year. That, of course, built on the historic joint unveiling in 1998 by Her Majesty and the President of Ireland of the Messines peace tower on the site of the battle of Messines Ridge, to remember the Irish dead of the first world war—also mentioned earlier this evening—and to inaugurate the Island of Ireland peace park.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I understand the point that the Minister is making. However, the Northern Ireland Executive has not decided that it should not proceed with the military covenant and Ministers in their Departments are free to proceed with implementation. It is just that the equality provisions in section 75 sometimes present an obstacle to that. The Northern Ireland Act cannot be amended by the Northern Ireland Assembly; that is a matter for this House. That is why we want to discuss with the Government how we can overcome that obstacle.

Mark Francois: I think what the right hon. Gentleman has said is very reasonable. I hope that some of the acts of remembrance that I was referring to a few minutes ago will inspire those in the Northern Ireland Executive to work together to find a way forward to apply the covenant principles in a practical manner, and I hear what the right hon. Gentleman has said about their
	only being able to do so much. I think that that is something we could all discuss when we meet the Prime Minister next month. If, in that time, the right hon. Gentleman can explore what could be done by the Northern Ireland Executive, I believe that would materially inform that discussion. Then we need to see where we can go from there. I will leave it to the Minister of State to say whether there is any more that he can add to that when he winds up at the end of the debate, but I hope that I am replying to the right hon. Gentleman in the spirit in which he intervened on me.
	My hon. Friend the Minister of State has invited me to visit Northern Ireland. I have accepted his invitation to visit in the new year, to see for myself how the covenant operates in practice and whether there are any practical difficulties. I hope that it will also be possible for me to meet personnel from 38 Brigade. I think that, after the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, I am now honour-bound to visit a cadet unit as well; and as my own father served in the Royal Navy, perhaps I might be able to squeeze in a visit to HMS Caroline, too.
	In conclusion, we appreciate the complex history of Northern Ireland, and the sensitivities in this area, but we also appreciate the valuable service in our armed forces given to the Crown by so many from Northern Ireland—and indeed the whole of the island of Ireland—over many generations. It is important that we remember that service, and that we do our best for those who have served with such distinction—and for their families—because they have helped to keep us free.

Tom Blenkinsop: The military covenant has to be lauded as a fantastic aim and programme put in place by this Government, with cross-party support. It is a collective demonstration of the desire of representatives here and the people we represent to do far more for our deserving armed forces personnel. From a personal perspective, I know why a military covenant is needed: my grandfather fought for four years in the trenches of Flanders; my now 87-year-old father fought in the Combined Operation Pilotage Parties; and my community was home to Stan Hollis, a company sergeant major in the Green Howards who was the only man to receive a Victoria Cross for action on D-day. The people in my area, like those in many others in the United Kingdom, share those values.
	Our villages, communities, towns and cities buy in to the need for the military covenant, and the great partnership working by Government and local authority bodies and the voluntary armed forces charities to achieve its aims has been excellent, but today I want to draw the Government’s attention to anomalies that will undoubtedly affect members of the armed forces to their detriment, and, in some cases, take standards backwards for serving and former armed forces personnel and their families.
	In April 2013, thousands of families will have their housing benefit reduced by up to £80 a month because of the new bedroom tax. When I am out in my constituency, meeting residents and asking them about their concerns, that issue is becoming more prevalent. The coalition Government have said that persons classed as “of working age” who have an empty bedroom in their house will lose 14% of the rent value, and 25% if there are two or more spare bedrooms. As a result, some people will have to find more than £1,000 extra a year just to stay in
	their home. Children under 10 are expected to share a room, and children up to 16 are expected to share a room with a same-sex sibling, so a family of four living in a three-bedroom house could still be charged an extra £44 a month even if there are no unoccupied bedrooms. Hundreds of local families will be affected and I could talk at length about them, but that is for another time.
	One of the many people to contact me is Alison Huggan from Coulby Newham in Middlesbrough. She has been a tenant of the same housing association for nearly two decades. Why is that relevant to today’s debate? Alison single-handedly brought up her twin boys in her three-bedroom house, which is owned by a local housing association, and both, now 18, are serving as soldiers in the Army. Alison said:
	“The Government has made no concessions and have totally disregarded personal circumstances. If the Government forces these changes, when my sons return home after defending our country and serving its people, they will not have a bed to sleep in at their family home. I have spoken to my housing officer about moving to a smaller one-bedroom property, only to be told that they do not have enough one-bedroom properties to meet the need of everyone.”
	The problem Alison is facing is shared by people right across my constituency, Teesside and the wider country, and people from all over the East Cleveland area have contacted me about the tax.
	What is also highly disappointing is the state of affairs regarding under-25s losing their entitlement to housing benefit. The Government recently decided to disband the 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards, with the proviso that cap badge, regimental heritage and legacy be maintained, with the strong likelihood of their being adopted for the Territorial Army battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment. Again, that is a separate matter and cannot be debated today, but the issue of redundant troops—the real human cost—has yet to be addressed in relation to housing benefit.
	A number of parents, who want to remain anonymous for the sake of their sons and daughters serving in the armed forces, have raised concerns about how the housing benefit changes will affect personnel who leave the armed forces under the age of 25, with very little in the way of savings, and who are looking for housing and benefits after April 2013. They are not from wealthy families and do not have the luxury of the bank of mum and dad to help with a deposit—if, indeed, they have a job to go to that will enable them to maintain future payments. Unemployment in my constituency is always high.
	As yet, the status of soon-to-be-former armed forces personnel aged under 25 in relation to housing benefit is still in question, but it has to be said that on Teesside—an area with a high level of local young people serving in the armed forces juxtaposed with some of the highest unemployment and, in particular, youth unemployment in the country, and where some of the poorest wards in the country are to be found—we find it incredibly difficult to accept that recently former armed forces personnel aged under 25 will not have access to housing benefit. That is an obvious anomaly and flies in the face of the guarantees stipulated in the military covenant regarding “special considerations”. I dearly hope that the Minister will take this issue on board and quickly resolve it.

Patrick Mercer: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), who has reminded me of something that happened eight or nine years ago when I was fishing in Robin Hood’s bay with my son, who was about 12 at the time. We were surrounded by a gang of lads who were watching us and what we were doing. I turned to them and said, “I imagine you’re joining the Army, aren’t you?” They said, “Not just that, but the Green Howards.” It is a wonderful regiment with wonderful recruits. What a curious decision to disband it.
	I pay tribute to the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and to the service of Ulstermen and, indeed, men and women from the Republic in the armed forces. With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I should like to add some comments of my own about the application of the military covenant in my own constituency of Newark.
	I will not bore the House, but I spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland. I was a fighting soldier and spent my time in difficult areas. We were not thanked by the individuals there—on the contrary, they shot at us—but when we were outside of those areas, I was struck by the people of Ulster’s warmth and their admiration for and understanding of the military culture. That is not unique, but it is rare in England. I was terribly taken with it. I think that, given the pressures of operations such as those that took place in Iraq and those that continue on the Pakistan border in Afghanistan, we forget today the sorts of pressures that not just my colleagues in the regular Army, but Territorial soldiers and officers and men in the Ulster Defence Regiment, the Royal Irish Regiment, the Royal Ulster Constabulary reserves, the RUC and now the Police Service of Northern Ireland have faced and continue to face on a day-to-day basis.
	Clearly, war is difficult. War is hell. It was all very well for a regular soldier such as I to have carried out a six-month or two-year tour in Northern Ireland and to then go home to sunny England, and it is all very well to serve in Afghanistan today—which is clearly immeasurably worse than anything I experienced—but we did not have to face the same sorts of pressures as these brave men and women who often lived cheek by jowl with individuals who were sympathetic to our enemies and who were, therefore, enemies themselves. It was hellishly difficult for those individuals. It imposed a toll and it continues to impose a toll, as the previous debate showed, on those who live in dangerous and difficult circumstances. The toll is not necessarily a physical one, but it is certainly a mental one.
	Let us therefore make sure that the brave men and women who have served the Crown in Northern Ireland are looked after properly when their service finishes, and I mean not just soldiers, sailors and airmen, but police officers, prison officers and the whole gamut of those who are proud to wear the Crown on their uniforms.
	I am amazed and dismayed by my right hon. Friend’s comments that respite care cannot—I think I am right in saying this—be carried out in Northern Ireland at the moment. That is a terribly important point. The Minister, who understands military affairs extremely well, knows that individuals who have served wish to recover among
	their comrades, if at all possible. With respect, I say to the Minister that if anything can be done for those brave men and women, I would be most grateful. I utterly endorse my right hon. Friend’s comments.
	I also admire the conduct of Her Majesty the Queen. I admire it in every way, but particularly admired it during her recent visit to the Republic and what she did there. She laid wreaths not just for our own men who fell as a result of the difficulties in the Republic, but for those many men who fought for His Majesty at the time, as exemplified by the Royal Dublin Fusiliers memorial in Dublin, which is hideously known as “traitors gate” by some and admired by others. Her Majesty showed no prejudice in the way that she respected those dead. I hope that the Taoiseach will accept my invitation, at some stage, to visit the graves of the Sherwood Forester soldiers, from the Sherwood Forester Brigade, who were killed in Dublin in 1916 and who now rest in their native soil of Nottinghamshire. I do not know what the reaction will be; so far, it has not been positive, but in the future I hope it will be.
	Moving on to the application of the military covenant in my constituency, I hope that I can suggest one or two things that the Minister might find useful. In 2007, a young man, Lance Corporal Davis of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, lost a leg on operations in Afghanistan. I knew his family slightly, but did not know him at all. I went to see him at hospital in Selly Oak. We thought that he was going to die. Two of his colleagues in the team with which he was patrolling did die. Luckily, Lance Corporal Davis recovered.
	That presented a problem in Newark, however. His father was not only having to take two children to school, but having to hold down his job as a lorry driver while his wife lived in Birmingham with their dangerously ill son, whom they thought was going to die. The road haulage company for which Mr Davis worked—which will remain nameless—was desperately unsympathetic to him. He was told that he had used his holiday and his leave, that he had no further opportunity to take time off work and that the mere loss of his son’s leg was no excuse.
	In one of the very few moments as a Member of Parliament when I have known that I was 100% right and have operated in a completely uncompromising fashion, I rang the managing director of the firm and asked whether he would like some publicity. He said that he would love some. I asked whether he would like to be on the front of every national daily the following day. He said that he would love to be. I said, “Well, not for the reasons that I am about to outline.” It worked a treat. Mr Davis was helped and he got his time off. He was able to look after not only his other children but his hero son.
	That case led us to establish the Newark Patriotic Fund. In the few years since, we have dealt with more than 12 amputees and a number of men and women who have presented—I think that is the word—with all sorts of mental difficulties. The earliest case with which we are dealing is a survivor from the Korean war. I am not here just to plug the Newark Patriotic Fund, although I will mention Mrs Susan Gray and Mrs Karen Grayson, who work tirelessly for it. I commend what it does to other Members. It raises large sums of money, principally to help the families.
	There is a gap in the way that the Government honour the military covenant. It is a gap not of commission but of omission, and the situation is evolving. Some useful precedents were set after the first and second world wars in how we deal with such men. I hope that we will not have many more people with traumatic injuries coming back to the Newark constituency, but we might have. However, we will definitely have a wave of mental illness that presents itself over the next decade or so. We have to look after those men—they are mainly men, although there are one or two women.
	I have a suggestion for the Minister, although I appreciate that it would involve expense. I believe that part of the military covenant should be that every soldier, sailor and airman, whether regular, reservist, territorial or whatever they are called in the future, should be offered medical screening on discharge. The medical services could advise on what the interval should be, but I would have thought that it should be about every three years. The individual should be looked at and given a chance to talk. Most people who are discharged are fit, but this would be an extremely useful way to monitor those who are concealing injuries, those who have injuries they do not know about and those who are in the developing stages of mental illness. It would not be cheap or easy to administer, but it might just prevent problems that could be nipped in the bud.
	To give an example, I was seen by a doctor in Lincoln about five years ago because of the injuries that I received in Northern Ireland. She said that I not only had the problems with my wounds, but extensive frostbite in my right foot. She said that unless that was put right, I would develop a problem in the future. That is a simple illustration, but unless I had seen that doctor I would not have known about it. If no one had said to me, “Look Colonel Mercer, behave yourself. Own up to what has happened and we can help you.”, life would have been more difficult for me.

John Glen: Given my hon. Friend’s experience, is this more about somebody’s willingness to engage and open up about difficult mental health issues than the availability of screening and services? A physical injury is one thing, but is the real issue the barrier of people not wanting to own up to the fact that there might be a problem?

Patrick Mercer: I am grateful for that helpful intervention. My hon. Friend is absolutely right and he will probably face many cases in his constituency that are similar to those in Newark.
	In another plug for the Newark Patriotic Fund—forgive me, Mr Speaker—one thing we find is that those who are without an arm or leg have probably come to terms with that. The groundswell of support and popularity—I do not quite use the word “glamour”, but I hope the House will understand what I mean—helps those individuals to come to terms with their situation. Those who are nursing, hiding or developing mental health problems find that much more difficult to talk about, but we find at our so-called drop-in centre that people are able and willing to talk in the company of other brave men and women who are empathetic and sympathetic.

Kevan Jones: rose —

Patrick Mercer: I give way with pleasure to the hon. Gentleman.

Kevan Jones: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. I looked at this issue when I was the Minister responsible for veterans, and may I suggest that screening at the point that someone leaves the forces is not the answer? We must ensure that individuals are flagged up so that GPs know they are veterans—the Labour party made a commitment to that, although I am not sure whether the Government have followed it through—and improve their access to mental health services. A lot of the problems that the hon. Gentleman mentions do not present until many years later and would not be picked up. I would prefer the money to go to help people at a later, rather than earlier, stage.

Patrick Mercer: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention but I am obviously not making myself clear because that is exactly my point. There will be awful problems with this. It was difficult enough for us catch up six months later with one regular soldier who had been discharged, and ask him to re-enlist in the Territorial Army because he had disappeared into the system. I understand that this matter is not simple. Care must be provided in five, 10 or 15 years’ time and offered to everyone, as the hon. Gentleman said, not just those who leave the forces having identified a problem.

Kevan Jones: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. This could be quite easy but I was frustrated with GPs who wanted to charge for putting an indicator on the QOF—the quality and outcomes framework. That is where money should be spent so that if people present after they have left the armed services, GPs will at least know that they have served in the forces. I am not sure whether the Minister has made any progress on that, but it is an important point and would be a better way to spend money.

Patrick Mercer: Absolutely.

Mark Francois: rose —

Patrick Mercer: I will, of course, give way to the Minister.

Mark Francois: I have not intervened purely to mention the Newark Patriotic Front—oh look, I appear to have done it. [Hon. Members: “ Fund!”] Forgive me—fund. With regard to the question from the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the Government are continuing to look at this issue but there is a difficulty concerning patient consent—I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) with his considerable military experience will understand that. The intention in principle is to evolve a system—we are working on it now—so that when an individual leaves the armed forces and registers with a GP, that GP will be informed that the person is a veteran. If the veteran then begins to present symptoms, including mental symptoms, which might be an effect of their service, the GP will hopefully have been informed that the person was a veteran when they moved across.
	We already have TRiM—trauma risk management—in which we invite men or women in a unit to look out for each other. If one of them starts to show signs of
	mental problems, the others do not shop them, as it were, but encourage them to speak to higher command to get help.

Patrick Mercer: As the Minister, with his military experience, will know, those systems have been in place informally for many years. I am not pretending that the measures will be simple, cheap or infallible, but if those who are discharged understand them, we stand a better chance of spending to save.

Chris Ruane: The last three hon. Members to intervene have mentioned looking after the mental health of soldiers when they return, but since 2009 American soldiers have been screened before going out. Their weaknesses and strengths are measured—their strengths are recognised and their weaknesses are strengthened. When the troops return, they are given therapy, including mindfulness-based therapy, which is cheap and three times more effective than drugs in treating depression and related conditions.

Patrick Mercer: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right, and prompts me to share a very short anecdote. The last time I was in Afghanistan with the grenadier company of my old battalion, the company major told me that every single man in the company had used his weapon and killed or injured. I said, “Are they all right?” He said, “They’re fine, except for the company sniper. He’s killed more than 25 men now, and he’s the one man I really worry about, because he enjoys it too much.” That illustrates the point exactly—that is the sort of thing with which we must cope in future.
	I will not detain the House for much longer, but I should like to make one more suggestion to the Minister. My view is that how we looked after serving and discharged personnel—it is now called the military covenant, but it was not called that at the time—was much better after the first world war than after the second world war. I commend not only the various patriotic funds that were set up, but the schemes in various large cities and towns—it was a different economic period—to set up taxi services specifically to be run by, mainly, limbless soldiers. Vehicles were bought and adapted for the men, and areas where veterans taxis would run were specifically designated. The cities and towns included Nottingham, Derby and Middlesbrough. I am not suggesting we replicate that scheme exactly, but other imaginative things can be done to help those men and women to return physically and mentally to their place in society. We could look at that suggestion to everybody’s benefit.

Bob Stewart: One problem with getting rid of regiments and making the infantry and other parts of the Army smaller is that we are losing regimental headquarters. Up till now, the regiment has been the one organisation to keep a proper trace on soldiers until they die. Soldiers are looked after by regimental headquarters, and friends warn when there is a problem. It is very sad, but that is one problem with losing our regimental headquarters.

Patrick Mercer: I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend. How on earth can we talk about localism while we are disbanding local regiments? I find that difficult
	to understand. I entirely endorse his point that the regimental structure was as much charitable as tactical, but there we are.
	We have heard about the contribution of people from Northern Ireland, which I respect and honour. I would point out that Nottinghamshire—man for man—took more casualties proportionately than any other county in Great Britain in the first world war and won more Victoria Crosses. We should respect our veterans, whether they come from Fermanagh, Derby, Nottingham or London. We must give them exactly the deal they understood they would get when they enlisted. I hope some of my suggestions will be put into practice by the Minister.

Elfyn Llwyd: I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and his right hon. and hon. Friends on bringing forward this very important debate. I am pleased that we have some time to debate this issue. It is also a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who spoke with great authority from his experience of military life.
	The failure to provide adequately for the needs of ex-service people stretches back well over a century, so I shall not make any political points today one way or the other. Kipling wrote of Tommy Atkins giving everything in service and returning to face virtually nothing in return. David Lloyd George, in a momentous speech at the beginning of the last century, poignantly referred to ex-service men returning from war as “broken men”—they mostly were men, then—and deserving of special treatment such as exemption from the payment of national insurance.
	How much has changed in the intervening decades, and many conflicts later? The topic we are discussing today is the military covenant—the pledge to the armed forces that we will continue to look after the welfare of veterans after they leave the service. It is evident that the majority of armed forces personnel adjust to civilian life normally after discharge. Despite this, a significant and—alas—growing minority of veterans experience acute social rupture when discharged from active service, becoming homeless, cut off from mainstream welfare services and isolated. Unless they undertake further training or are fortunate enough to have completed relevant training prior to joining the forces, it can be very difficult for veterans to enter further education and/or employment.
	If a veteran falls into a downward spiral, it is likely that he—and it is predominantly a male problem—will fall foul of the criminal justice system. Abuse of alcohol and drugs, and mental health problems, often act as catalysts. There is a lot of good work going on—it is not all downs—and next year, one of the main banks will announce a suite of financial services dedicated to ex-service people. I am pleased and proud that I have persuaded the bank to do that. It will be rolled out in Wales first and, if successful, then throughout the UK. One of the problems of people who have been in the forces for a long time is that they understandably get out of the normal money management routine that we all have to deal with every day.
	I have campaigned for greater recognition of the welfare needs of veterans over the years and have raised the issue in the House and elsewhere since 2008.
	In 2010, I published a paper entitled “Support for Veterans”, which contained detailed recommendations for increasing the support available to veterans, in particular those who came into contact with the criminal justice system. I chair the veterans in the criminal justice system all-party group, held under the auspices of the Justice Unions Parliamentary Group. The group comprises parliamentarians and representatives from criminal justice trade unions and charities, including the National Association of Probation Officers, the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Prison Officers Association, the Royal British Legion, SSAFA Forces Help and others.
	When our campaign began, very few were raising the issue, but I am glad to see that it has now become a core manifesto commitment for every party. The Armed Forces Act 2006 also enshrined the principles of the covenant in law. Much work has been done—and that is to the Government’s credit—but much remains to be done, and I await the annual report in the coming weeks.
	As a matter of urgency, a thorough audit should be completed of the number of ex-service personnel who are in our prison system.

Kevan Jones: We did one.

Elfyn Llwyd: I am not going to get involved in arguments about figures with the hon. Gentleman. We have tried that before—I do not accept his figures and he does not accept mine. NAPO and various other organisations do accept my figures.

Kevan Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is like a broken record. As Minister, I got all the data for all three services, in some cases going back to 1968. The Howard League report accepted those figures. I am sorry that they do not match up with some of the figures that he and others want to keep perpetuating, but I do not know what else I could have done to get those figures or what the Minister could do now.

Elfyn Llwyd: I was an adviser to the Howard League report. The hon. Gentleman’s scoping exercise did not include women, reservists—

Kevan Jones: That is not true.

Elfyn Llwyd: Well, that is what the then Minister told the Howard League. It did not include reservists, those under 21 or those who had served in Northern Ireland—that is what the Minister at the time told the inquiry. [ Interruption. ] That is the evidence that we were given and some of the conclusions we reached.

Kevan Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman really suggesting that to get the 25% figure that he often quotes—

Elfyn Llwyd: No, I never quoted that.

Kevan Jones: Well, I think some of the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues have. The figure was about 3% or 4% of the prison population. Is he seriously suggesting that he could make another 23% by adding reservists to it?

Elfyn Llwyd: I have never said it is 25%: 10% is the highest figure that I have ever canvassed, so I am not getting involved in a sterile figures argument. There are other issues to discuss.
	As a matter of urgency, we need to have another look at those who are involved in the system. I became involved in this issue when I was working in courts in north Wales and Cheshire. I noticed that an increasing number of those appearing for very serious offences professed to come from a military background. Thus, I tabled some questions. At the time, in 2008, no information was held centrally. The shadow Minister says that a scoping exercise was thereafter undertaken—fine, I accept that.

Kevan Jones: It was not a scoping exercise.

Elfyn Llwyd: Well, an exercise to determine the figures was then entered into by the Government. I accept that. Whatever the figure is, it is quite substantial—that must be common ground.
	I honestly and sincerely believe that more resources should be put into helping veterans with mental health problems. Many people who have served leave the forces without any trauma whatever. However, at present, as I understand it, veterans do not undergo a compulsory mental health assessment prior to leaving the armed forces, except for the more obvious cases that demand it. Because of that, it is difficult to calculate the prevalence of mental health issues most commonly associated with veterans, among them post-traumatic stress disorder. PTSD is a convenient umbrella term, but it is just one complaint. The difficulty with it is that it can become evident within a couple of week or after 12 years.

Kevan Jones: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to get the figures, he should read Simon Wessely’s very good study, going back to the first Gulf war and before. It provides the figures for PTSD, which are between 3% and 4%. It is a very good study that is internationally recognised as a groundbreaking work.

Elfyn Llwyd: That may or may not be the case, but in the United States, for example, the authorities talk about 35%. There is a substantial problem and I hope that we are able to look not just at PTSD—that is just one thing—but traumatic brain injury and other conditions. We have yet to see the scale of the fall-out from the first and second Iraq wars and from Afghanistan. However, I think there is a tendency to focus on PTSD. There are literally dozens of other mental health conditions that can affect personnel, including traumatic brain injury and anxiety-related problems, such as obsessive compulsive disorder and depression. The idiosyncratic needs of the veteran community must be taken into account when providing funding for research and treatment.
	A paper recently produced by Dr Ian Palmer of the Medical Assessment Programme of King’s College London reported that, based on the findings of a clinic-based study on a self-selecting group of 150 veterans, veterans involved with the NHS mental health service tended to be middle aged, ex-army and male. That demographic picture reinforces the view that mental health problems can take years to develop—from the time of discharge to up to 12 years later.
	I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee, and, as I understand it, so did the Minister. The impression was given that the problem of alcohol misuse was being addressed, and that it was less of a problem than it had been. According to the report, however, 80% of those in this group had misused alcohol, and one quarter had encountered problems with the law. The barriers to seeking help included pride, guilt, shame and remembrance of lost colleagues. Obsessive compulsive symptoms were prevalent among many of those who reported problems readjusting to civilian life, while those not in a stable relationship were less likely to seek help, reinforcing the view that support from loved ones is vital for returning veterans.
	Further research would have to be done, but the results are telling. Most crucially, it is clear that psychological assessments should be made mandatory for all those leaving the forces. The shadow Minister and the Minister talked about GPs flagging up patients who have done military service, but I understand that there might be a problem with data protection. I do not know whether that is right, but it needs to be cleared up. The flagging up is perfectly acceptable and a very good idea, but we need to address the data protection issue, so that we can provide a seamless service.

Mark Francois: There is a problem with data protection and patient consent, but we believe it can be overcome, and work on that is taking place.
	I should declare an interest: King’s College London, to which hon. Members have referred several times, was my alma mater. I did my MA in law studies there. It is widely acknowledged that it has great expertise in the field of service mental health, and if it gives the right hon. Gentleman even slight reassurance, let me say that I am going there next week to meet Professor Simon Wessely and others to learn as much about this as I can.

Elfyn Llwyd: I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that intervention, and I am pleased with his comments. I know that a lot of work is being done, but I also know that a lot of work needs to be done, and I accept and appreciate his remarks in the tone they were given.
	We need to address the huge dependency on alcohol and other substances that many armed forces personnel develop. Alcohol is frequently treated as a catalyst to unwinding by those on leave, and it can be no coincidence that many veterans leave active service displaying an overdependence on alcohol. Who am I to talk about that? I have never seen the hell they have been through, and one can understand why it occurs. Nevertheless, counselling on substance misuse must be a vital part of decompression.
	During passage of the Armed Forces Act 2011, I tabled amendments based on the recommendations of a parliamentary group on veterans in the criminal justice system, as well as those made in the paper published in 2010. I was unfortunately prevented from sitting on the Bill Committee—the only time I have been unsuccessful in applying for a Bill Committee position in my 20 years in Parliament. I am not sure what happened. I was able to make a contribution on Second Reading and Report, however, and progress has now been made. As I stated, the principles of the military covenant are now enshrined
	in law, which is important, but we need to go further and ensure not only that we talk about the covenant but that it is a means of delivery for those who need these vital services.
	I am pleased to have taken a brief part in this debate. There is good will among Members of all parties in the House to increase awareness of the problems faced by veterans, and the issue has now become popular with the media. We know, for example, that there are thousands of veterans charities doing fantastic work, but perhaps more could be done to link some of them together, to provide specialist services in some corners and add to the Government services being provided.

Bob Stewart: My worry is that once the Afghanistan campaign has gone in a few years and when these problems really start to present themselves, we will not have the public support that we have now, and we will probably not have the money to help that we have now. Then it will become primarily a Government problem; therefore, the Government have to understand that they must take responsibility for looking after these people until the time they die.

Elfyn Llwyd: I agree entirely, but there has been a problem historically. For example, I remember that there was a designated centre in north Wales dealing with PTSD that was run by a very experienced clinician called Dr Dafydd Alun Jones. I went to see the then Labour Minister at the MOD and asked whether he could put in a good word to secure funding for people to be treated there. He gave me a wry smile and said, “I sympathise with you, but unfortunately it’s a matter for the Health Department.” Some months later the Minister was transferred, as Secretary of State, to the Department of Health, so I went to see him. I got the same wry smile and words of sympathy: “It’s not my problem, guv. Have a word with either the DWP or the Ministry of Defence.” What that implies to me is that until very recently this matter was never taken as seriously as it warrants.

Kevan Jones: indicated  dissent .

Elfyn Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. That may be his view, but I am pleased that this matter is now being taken seriously. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs is now looking at it and the Welsh Government are doing good work, as are our colleagues and friends in Scotland—for example, in Edinburgh there is a one-stop shop, which again could be a model for all countries in the UK—so at long last stuff is happening.
	I want to end on what might be a discordant note, by quoting from a letter I received a couple of weeks ago. It is from a gentleman who served in the armed forces who lives in Barry, in the Vale of Glamorgan, and he says:
	“I spent much of my working life as a member of the RAF as an aircraft engineer, completing over twenty years service. During Operation Desert Storm in 1991, I suffered a spinal injury that eventually led to the RAF and I going our separate ways after a medical discharge. Some months later the spinal damage worsened and led to my being hospitalised for an emergency operation to remove a damaged disc. However, due to a delay, much of my nervous system was wrecked, although I did manage to gain some mobility…The upshot of all the foregoing trauma was that my mobility was curtailed due to nervous damage and continuous pain. Over the past 17 years my condition has worsened due to
	age, however I can just cope—or I could until recently, when I received a letter from the DWP which informed me that I had to go and play performing monkeys for ATOS.
	The question is: ‘What the hell happened to the much trumpeted Covenant between the Armed Forces and the Government?’ And no it cannot just apply to the Army. From personal experience, those on the other side give no heed to the colour of the uniform worn—they will try to kill you anyway. As I understand it the Covenant promises to take care of those injured in the service of this country. Seems from my point of view to be failing big time—not a good thing for those lads and lasses putting their lives on the line in Afghanistan. Has the MoD told them this fact yet?
	So what does the future hold for me and mine? Playing performing monkeys for ATOS, whose operatives are, as I understand it, under orders to fail 90% of all those seen. So given that I have a 90% chance of failure, this will mean that I will lose the use of the Motability vehicle that is my only mode of transport, however, now being housebound, I’ll probably not have a house to live in, as the loss of income will put our mortgage in jeopardy. Even so, I would launch an appeal against the ruling which, if the various stories I have heard are true, I will probably win. This has its draw backs as those that have won their hearings are then dragged back by ATOS to undergo the whole process again…as many as four times. Isn’t this illegal under the Disability and Equality Act?”
	That confirms what the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) was saying about the DWP, and about the need for extra care when dealing with ex-service personnel. The letter supports what has already been said.
	We spend many months training these young men and women to the highest level to prepare them for active duty. Once deployed, they will often witness the kind of horrors that few of us, myself included, could ever comprehend. The least we can do for them is to spend a similar period decompressing them as they approach their discharge, and to ensure that no veteran is left to fend for himself or herself. As the Ministers know, there is a time-honoured maxim in the armed forces: “Leave no man behind.” Unless and until we can make the military covenant fully and positively deliver the necessary services, however, that is precisely what the Government will be doing.

Oliver Colvile: I congratulate the Democratic Unionist party on having the foresight to secure this debate on the military covenant. It was perhaps sad that we were unable to discuss the matter immediately before Remembrance Sunday, as it would have been particularly pertinent at that time. The debate nevertheless gives me an opportunity to talk about some of the issues that affect the military in my constituency.
	I also want to thank the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) for his announcement about HMS Caroline. That was brilliant news. I would like to ask the DUP and the Executive in Northern Ireland to ensure that representatives from Devonport are invited to see it in Belfast, because it started life in Devonport; that is where it was built. It was one of the last ships to be built there, in 1914.
	I pay tribute to those Northern Irish and Irish soldiers, sailors and airmen who have served in our armed forces. I also want to pay tribute to those members of 3 Commando Brigade who died during the troubles in Northern Ireland. We need to recognise them. All too often that has not happened because people were more interested in what was happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.
	I welcome this opportunity to talk about the military covenant. A number of things need to be done, and I welcome the fact that the Government will be publishing their first report before Christmas. The issues affect not only the regulars but the reservists. I want to say a little about the reservists, because it is their families who end up bearing an awful lot of the brunt when their husbands or partners—or even their wives—go abroad to serve on operations. I hope that we can have a debate about what we are trying to do for reservists’ families.

Jack Lopresti: The families do not lack support when the reservists are away; the support received from the regiment is second to none. It is when a reservist is demobilised and returns to civilian life that they feel the most isolated and in need of support. When a regiment comes back from theatre, the individual soldiers have the support mechanism of their comrades and the family of the regiment itself, but the reservists go back to being civilians. They lack having comrades around them who understand what they have been through and the readjustments that they are having to make.

Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. That is certainly the line from the Army, but those in the Royal Navy—or, for that matter, the Royal Marines or the Royal Air Force—do not necessarily live on base in the same way, and therefore both regulars and reservists can feel isolated during that process. Those serving in the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines do not normally live on base. They are encouraged to buy their own homes. The Government need to look at how we can encourage such people to get on to the property ladder.
	The reservist families need a significant amount of support. When I was on Woodbury Common last year on the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I came across a Royal Marine—I do not know whether he was a reservist, but I suspect he was—who lived in Aylesbury. He said that when he went home, he experienced some real difficulties. He wanted to talk to his friends about what had happened during his time in Afghanistan, but he found that it was not easy to do so. When he went back to his wife and said, “I have had an interesting time”, she said, “Don’t talk to me about what kind of day you’ve had; I’ve ended up having to answer 300 e-mails.” Perhaps she was working for a Member of Parliament and replying to constituents. He had been under mortar fire for seven or eight hours during the day and found it difficult to talk to her about that, so he went off to find his mates, but they had not been through that experience either, and they also had difficulty understanding what he was talking about. He thus had to go and find his fellow Royal Marines to talk to, as they understood his experiences.
	We need to ensure that we set up a chat room for those reservist families to be able to talk to each other while their husbands or family members are away. I very much welcome the comments made about TRIM—trauma risk management. We recently had a breakfast here with the Royal Marines, and they talked enormously about it. In Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, we have signed the community covenant, too, which is working incredibly well. Last Friday, we talked quite extensively about how to ensure that people are looked after in respect of housing, for example.

Mark Francois: I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend, but to give all due credit to the Royal Marines, my understanding is that they initially helped to develop the TRIM programme. It was such a success within the brigade and its commandos that it was exported to the rest of the armed forces. It is quite right to pay tribute to the Royal Marines as basically they came up with the programme.

Oliver Colvile: I suspect, if I may say so, that the programme is very good because the Royal Marines is a small unit able to deliver it, but there are many lessons to be learned.
	Finally, the Royal Navy in Plymouth and Devonport, with the help of the Prime Minister, is doing an enormous amount of work on dementia, because it understands the impact on a family when personnel are abroad. We have a lot to do, and I would be interested to know when we are going to have the debate.

Rory Stewart: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, especially when he is close to finishing his speech. The issue of the particular needs of servicemen also relates to the provision of sheltered housing for homeless ex-servicemen. Will my hon. Friend reflect on whether we should follow the model, already pioneered in Catterick, of specialist provision for homeless ex-servicemen so that they can relate to each other in a way that might not be possible in other forms of sheltered housing?

Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend is quite right. One organisation he may wish to talk to is Alabaré, which does a lot of work on homes for ex-servicemen and is very well regarded by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan). We have a lot of work to do, and I look forward to the report on the armed forces covenant.

Gemma Doyle: I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate on our armed forces and the military covenant. Our servicemen and women sacrifice so much in defence of our country, as do their families, and they continue to serve across the world, most notably at present in Afghanistan, putting their lives on the line. Even in recent weeks, some have sadly paid the ultimate sacrifice, including Corporal Channing Day of 3 Medical Regiment, about whom we have already heard. Sadly, she died alongside Corporal David O’Connor of 40 Commando Royal Marines. I understand that Corporal Day was from Newtownards in County Down. She will be terribly missed by her family and by all who knew her. Her death reminds us that no corner of the UK is untouched by terrible sadness and tragedy when our forces pay the ultimate sacrifice.
	It is just a matter of days since the nation paused together to remember the fallen. From the thousands of people lining Whitehall to the events in all of our communities, it would appear that the number of people who participate in acts of remembrance is, if anything, rising.
	I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) for reminding us about the Irishmen who served in the first world war. My great-
	grandfather was one of those men—he was a Royal Dublin Fusilier—and, as the right hon. Gentleman said, it is extremely important for us to remember their service as part of the commemorations of the great war.
	I welcome the new Minister to his post. I recognise his commitment to our forces, and I appreciate that, as a former reservist, he will have first-hand experience of some of the issues that we are discussing.
	We must bear in mind that, at its heart, the armed forces covenant is first and foremost about people. Labour Members worked hard to strengthen the Bill that became the Armed Forces Act 2011. We supported the move to give legislative recognition to the covenant, and we will support the Government in seeking to enshrine it at all levels and in all departments of the public sector and, indeed, extend it further.
	Today’s debate is timely, given the forthcoming publication of the Government’s first annual covenant report. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House read with interest the interim report that was published late last year. In my view, however, the Government have already done the easy bit, and the next steps will prove to be the real hard work. There is a small degree of scepticism in the services community about the enshrining of the covenant in legislation, and we must ensure that that is not just warm words, but is backed up by action.
	None of us particularly wants to be in opposition, because we cannot do all the things that we would like to do, but being in opposition does not mean that we cannot do anything. I was delighted when, earlier this year, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) launched the veterans interview programme, which involves a range of companies guaranteeing interviews to veterans with the skills that they seek. As Members will know, a number of different charities and organisations operate veterans employment schemes, and that variety is welcome, because we have not yet got it right.
	A large number of service people will be “transitioning” in the coming years, and they will have skills and experience that we should use in business, in public service, in innovation, in problem-solving, in leadership, and in getting the job done. We need a better framework for their transition to civvy street, and we need better routes to work. Unemployment is higher among veterans than in the general population, and that should not be the case.
	Earlier this month the Government announced the introduction of a kitemark for companies that support their reservist employees, and I think that it could be extended. That possibility was discussed at a recent event organised by Recruit for Spouses and sponsored by the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). A kitemark could be awarded to companies that adopt a positive attitude to the employment of veterans, reservists and forces spouses. If there is to be such a kitemark, it should be a badge of honour, and we should consider how to reward employers who have it. I urge the Government to consider again whether the kitemark could be taken into account in procurement decisions, because we do not agree with them that EU procurement rules would prevent that.
	Some veterans, however, must deal with more pressing, urgent issues before they can even think of employment. Some of our veterans are living with extremely serious
	injuries. When we speak of veterans we tend to think of them as older people, but many are not very old at all, and they want to live their lives. We should ensure that if we can remove a hurdle, a worry or a barrier, we do so.
	I welcome the guarantees on prosthetics that arose from the review conducted by the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). Now that he is a Minister in the MOD, he will be well placed to ensure that those guarantees are delivered. However, I urge Ministers to consider whether such guarantees could be extended to cover other types of health care provision and treatment. I should welcome any details about progress in relation to mental health services and IVF provision.
	The whole point of the armed forces covenant is that no one who has served should be disadvantaged by that service, but I hope that we can also use the umbrella of the covenant to highlight examples of excellence in the way in which the forces community are treated, to raise the bar, and to end the postcode lottery method of decision making. Time and again, I hear about people leaving the forces being sent to the back of the queue for local authority housing. Someone who is leaving the forces—and many are not doing so through choice at the moment—and has been in service accommodation will need to find a new home for his or her family. It should not be the case that no local authority will take responsibility for them, or that they can only apply as homeless, or that they do not have a choice about where they can relocate.

Pamela Nash: I am sure my hon. Friend will be as happy as I am that most of Scotland is now served by local authorities that are signed up to the community covenant. However, in Scotland that has been hindered by the Scottish Government cuts, which have been handed down to local authorities. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Scottish Government, as well as the UK Government, have a responsibility for supporting local authorities to enact the community covenant and protect our servicemen and women and their families?

Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Unfortunately, we are continuing to see a patchwork of provision across the UK, and it is to be hoped that we can address that problem through the community covenants.
	Over the last couple of months a number of cases have been highlighted in Scotland by the Daily Record. Calum Grant served in Afghanistan and Iraq with the Highlanders. He has been told he is likely to be offered a house in about nine years. Scots Guard Jason Eadie also served in Afghanistan and his son has cerebral palsy. He has been told he will wait for about 15 years for a house.
	Unfortunately, the Scottish Government are sitting on their hands. They say they have issued guidance to local authorities and it is now up to them to sort it out. The Scottish Government housing Minister is also the veterans Minister, however, so he can no doubt arrange a meeting with himself to sort out a solution. He has said that
	“the housing needs of those who have served in the forces should be considered sympathetically by local authorities. It is the responsibility of”
	councils to ensure that families
	“have all their options explained.”
	However, knowing what their options are and being listened to sympathetically does not get families a house. It is not good enough to pass the buck to local authorities.
	I read the evidence the Defence Minister gave to the Welsh Affairs Committee recently and I am concerned that he may share the Scotland veterans Minister’s view, because he said he wanted veterans to be given “the maximum possible consideration” by local authorities in respect of housing priority. Again, however, consideration does not necessarily get people a house. I say to him and the Scottish housing Minister that we need a framework that all local authorities and housing associations can sign up to. It has to be a framework that is stronger than just giving consideration to, or listening sympathetically to, veterans.

Michael Weir: rose —

Gemma Doyle: I am very sorry, but I am not going to give way as I am conscious that other Members still want to speak.
	Clearly, Northern Ireland faces particular challenges in taking the covenant forward, as Members have made clear today. I hope that a solution can be found.
	The British public have given generously over the years, and have supported a vibrant and varied armed forces charitable sector, which not only provides services but pushes all of us in this Chamber to do better by the service community. Its role is invaluable, but it is not a substitute for Government action, and it should not be taken for granted.
	The Minister and I attended the recent COBSEO—Confederation of British Service and Ex-Service Organisations—annual general meeting. He was in the hot seat, and I was in the cheap seats at the back. I am sure he will recall questions about the fund which has been drawn from bankers’ fines, for which charities have been invited to bid. I welcome that fund, but there were concerns about its administration, in that charities have, perhaps, not been given sufficient notice to make applications. Some guidance on and criteria for applications would be welcome.
	Our armed forces consistently go above and beyond the call of duty, making great sacrifices in the defence of our country. We will never be able to thank them enough for what they do. A career in the forces is a career like no other: it asks for so much, not only from those serving, but from their families as well. The covenant challenges all of us to ensure our forces, veterans and forces’ families do not face disadvantage because of their service. They deserve the best from us, and it is the job of all of us to make sure they get it.

Several hon. Members: rose—

Nigel Evans: Order. The wind-ups are going to start at 6.40 pm. Three Members remain to speak, so if they take just under four minutes each everybody will get in. If they take interventions, I really should ignore any injury time.

Penny Mordaunt: It is not long ago that people taking a stroll around the pubs in Westminster or elsewhere in the country would often
	see posters saying that members of the armed forces were not welcome to drink there. As a country, we have undergone a massive cultural change in our level of appreciation for our armed forces and how we show it. We hope that the armed forces covenant will take things to a new level, and it is tremendously important that this is led by the Government and local authorities.

Neil Parish: On 18 July, Lyndon Chatting-Walters of 9 Parachute Squadron, Royal Engineers was blown up in Afghanistan and came home with serious injuries. While he was still very ill and at home having them dealt with, he had to sign a form for compensation, and that is now being used to reduce his compensation package. He is seriously ill, and we need to deal with this situation.

Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was going to make five brief points to the Minister about what he should be focusing on as he develops the covenant, and the role of Service Complaints Commissioner was top of the list. It is a unique position. The person has tremendous knowledge and expertise, yet they were not involved in developing the armed forces covenant and they are not involved in the writing of the annual report. It would be tremendously helpful if the Minister could rectify that.
	Secondly, I was going to mention the integration between civilian services and services in the armed forces, where health care tops the list of areas that need to be examined. Thirdly, the covenant is really a call to arms. It is a call for good ideas to be brought forward and acted on, so will the Minister ensure that he has enough resources and capacity to be able to examine them and implement them? Fourthly, a lot of money is being put into all kinds of organisations that provide services and support to our armed forces, in part because of the kind of operations we are undertaking at the moment. That might not be the case in the future, so I urge all Departments to take a long-term view of how they plan to upkeep those rehabilitation services when there is less money coming in.
	Finally, I ask the Minister to examine the low-level issues as well as the headlines. We have had wonderful, long overdue announcements under the covenant in areas such as education and in vitro fertilisation, but we need to address the downright boring stuff that will make a great difference to men and women in our armed forces, for example, getting their joint personnel administration accounts to work and getting the shower fixed when they are overseas. I urge him to examine those issues and not let up on reforms in that area. I also just wish to say that I am delighted that he is at the helm, and I think that great things can be done under this initiative.

Nigel Evans: Thank you for your brevity. I call Jim Shannon.

Jim Shannon: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words, Mr Deputy Speaker. First, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on bringing
	this matter to the House and on setting the scene clearly for us all. I am proud to stand here today beside my fellow British men and British women to say a big thank you to all those who put their lives, their mental health and their physical health at risk every day.
	My constituency was devastated recently by the news of the loss of young Channing Day in Afghanistan. She was a courageous and heroic young lady who gave much. My right hon. Friend and I were both at a dinner in London when we heard the news filtering through that night, and it came as a shock to everyone there. I was shocked to the very pit of my stomach. Many of us were shocked to learn that someone who came from a place not 10 minutes away from my office would never be home in physical body again. The community of Comber turned out in great numbers at the Royal British Legion service on the Saturday before the service that the Minister of State attended in Comber church, and it was a very poignant occasion. All the RBL remembrance services in my area served as a particular reminder, because not too far away was a young lady who gave her life. The Army quickly stepped in to provide the assistance necessary to help the family—to bring them over to receive Channing’s remains when they came home and to come to Comber. The funeral was an occasion of some poignancy and tears for all of us. Those are things that we remember.
	Let me make a couple of very quick points. About a month ago, we had a coffee morning in my office for SSAFA—the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association—which raised some £3,600. We have raised £14,000 over four years. That is only a drop in the ocean when it comes to what is necessary, but it underlines the fact that there are a great number of charities, including SSAFA, ABF and the Royal British Legion, all doing their best to ensure that the opportunities are open to everyone when it comes to ensuring that people have the chance to receive the help that they need.
	I am very privileged to come from an area where people join the armed forces—it is not just an exception, but an everyday part of my life. In my office alone, my secretary’s nephew and my researcher’s friend and husband are serving Queen and country. That is three people out of my office and shows the service from the area. I am proud to stand in the Chamber on behalf of the people of my constituency of Strangford and the service they give across the whole world. It is true to say that wherever a person goes in the world, they will find a soldier from Northern Ireland either fighting a battle or cleaning up afterwards. Wherever I have been in the world with the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I have met soldiers from my constituency who are doing just that—giving a great service across the world.
	I have also been an avid supporter of the British Legion’s “Honour the Covenant” campaign, which we should all support. I believe that there have been many changes in how the MOD and the Government treat our returning soldiers. As many Members have said, we need to consider their mental health, but there is also a physical aspect to the question. With growing numbers of injured personnel coming home from Afghanistan, there is an immediate need for a dedicated strategy on care for them and their families. They need to know what they are coming home to and we should be providing that strategy.
	Finally, whenever I meet servicemen, they say to me that they will give all they have if we will take care of those they love back home. We have a responsibility to the families, too, and we should and must act on that. I think of this comment: they offer their tomorrows so that we can have our today. Let us honour that and honour the covenant, and let us enshrine it from these green Benches so that it covers each and every corner of the United Kingdom.

Nigel Evans: I call Mr Weir, who should finish no later than 6.40 pm.

Michael Weir: I am glad to be able to make a brief contribution to this important debate. I fully support the motion. I would have preferred it had it referred to “nations and regions”, but we will not fall out over that.
	Scotland has a long military tradition, of course, and Scottish soldiers, sailors and airmen and women have served and continue to serve with distinction and courage. They are justly proud of their reputation as among the best in the world. They, their families and veterans are an integral part of Scottish society and their local communities. I represent 45 Commando, based in RM Condor by Arbroath. Many personnel have married locally and settled in the area after leaving the service. Recently, the unit raised a lot of funding, much of it locally, to provide the Woodlands memorial garden to commemorate those who have fallen in conflict, from Northern Ireland and the Falklands to Iraq and Afghanistan. It not only remembers them but provides an opportunity for all those who have served to have a quiet place for reflection, as well as providing a place for children to play. It reminds us that not only those who serve but the families are important. Those families are often left behind, worrying about those who are in the services, whether they are in Afghanistan or elsewhere..
	Many of the services required by the military covenant are devolved in Scotland, including health, education and housing, and are the responsibility of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government are committed to the armed forces covenant and to ensuring that no member of the armed services, service family member or veteran in Scotland faces disadvantage when accessing services or support. We have a veterans Minister, Keith Brown, who is a former Royal Marine from 45 Commando who served in the Falklands war. We have published a paper, “Our Commitments”, which sets out the Scottish Government’s support for the armed forces community in Scotland and has been widely welcomed, including by the head of veterans services at the MOD’s service personnel and veterans agency.
	I want to address one specific point. I was very disappointed that the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) made a ridiculous political attack on housing, because that is an important issue for veterans and servicemen. The Scottish Government have introduced legislation to ensure that service people’s local connections are taken into account when they leave, which is something that Labour never did in its eight years in power although it was Labour that introduced the original legislation. We do not have a stock of housing we can just pull out of a hat and give to anyone
	who comes along—there is a serious difficulty, irrespective of what the covenant says, with the supply of social housing.
	Too often in the past, service people have been told that they have no local connection because they have moved around a lot, and their local connection is in an area where perhaps they have not been for many years, as a result of their service. The Scottish Government have ensured that they are treated as having a local connection; they will be considered for social housing. However, there is not enough social housing, because successive Governments—Labour in particular—failed to build social housing when they had the chance. The Scottish Government are now building new social housing to deal with the lack that there has been for so long. I think it is appalling—

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. We must begin the wind-ups. Mr Paisley.

Ian Paisley Jnr: This has been a wonderful debate. We have seen a very good response from across the Chamber, and it has provided people from every arc and part of this kingdom with an opportunity to come here and voice the issues that are of concern to them about veterans and their needs, and about how we, as a Parliament and as a nation, should treat them. It really has been a tribute to our armed service personnel. I hope I speak for everyone when I say that it is Parliament expressing the high esteem in which we hold our veterans and our armed service personnel.
	Soldiers have been ambassadors for Northern Ireland. As one Member mentioned, when those soldiers who came from the mainland and served in Northern Ireland got to meet the ordinary folk—the people who supported them, the people who welcomed them, the people who knew that they were there to protect their life and their property—they became ambassadors for those people when they returned home to their families. Likewise, soldiers who have travelled from Northern Ireland, who have been recruited in Ulster and worked for the British Army overseas, have been ambassadors for our country, and have told great things about it. Of course, as my colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has just recited, many have paid the ultimate sacrifice for being the ambassadors of our nation. It is for that reason that we should do all that we can as a Parliament to help them, and to assist their families, and to ensure that the military covenant is honoured not just in spirit but in the letter of the law in every part of the United Kingdom, not just some parts of it.
	When my colleague and right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) opened the debate, he said how such service has affected not just people in the United Kingdom but now people in the Republic of the Ireland. We welcome the efforts that were made by the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, to establish a memorial garden to the fallen victims of world war one who had volunteered to fight for Crown and country and should have been honoured but were treated so disgracefully.
	But what gets me is the fact that before this debate, we had a previous debate, with pious tones about leadership, about what we should do for our country, how we
	should stand up and be together; and as soon as the debate on the military covenant started, I was caught in the breeze as the three SDLP Members were hurtling out of the door so fast they nearly took the hinges off it. I think that is a disgrace. I think they should be here, and they should have debated this issue and felt comfortable debating this issue. The fact that they made themselves absent makes it all the worse for them, because they have let down many people in Northern Ireland tonight, whom they should have been speaking for and should have been supporting.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley rightly indicated that section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is a great impediment to many of the proposals that we seek to introduce, especially in housing. I would like it if, when a former soldier presents himself or herself to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, he or she would automatically get 200 or 300 points on the list; in other words, they could choose where to live. They will never be able to live in certain parts of Ulster, so they should have the advantage of being given extra points right away to be housed. They do not get that; we need that sorted out. I know that the Minister is listening to that, because we have spoken about it before, and it is crucial.
	In addition, the children of a former soldier should be able to get into the right primary school, where the parents know they will be safe. If a person has a roof over their head, and feels that their children are safe and free from fear, that person will be a better person in society. We need to do all we can to bring that about.
	I was delighted by the comments by the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois). We will give him room, between now and, I think, 12 December, when we meet the Prime Minister, to iron out some of the issues, because he is right: not everyone does support the agenda that we have set before the House tonight. Let us use the time, so that when we get to 12 December we have an agenda that is not only agreed but can be taken forward and implemented. I hope that we can do so.
	The Minister mentioned the 170 Victoria Crosses awarded to Irishmen in the service of our country. One hailed from my constituency—Robert Quigg, from Bushmills. He was a brave and gallant man—a shepherd—who laid his life on the line during the battle of the Somme and rescued 16 people, I believe, from no man’s land close to enemy lines. What a gallant soldier and what an inspiration to local people in the community, where he is still hailed with wonder.
	The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) talked about how the Green Howards are being disbanded. He is right to question and challenge that decision, as was the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who highlighted the difficulty for veterans in Northern Ireland who have to live next door to people who would previously have had them on their hit list. He is right to say that, very soon, a wave of such cases will come before us which we as a nation will have to deal with, and deal with appropriately.
	The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), with his lovely Welsh lilt, as usual entertained the House with everything from an apt reference to
	David Lloyd George’s speech after the war about the broken men to the project he is launching on banking services. I think that is a great idea, and we will watch with interest to see whether there are components that we can pick up and run with, not only in Ulster but in other places, I am sure. The military covenant should be something that emboldens people to be creative and to find opportunities to deliver other services.
	I will leave the right hon. Gentleman to his dispute with the former Minister, but I think we all agree that we want more money in the system for our veterans. On that point, the Defence Minister reassured us in an intervention that the data protection and patient consent issue is now nearly sorted out. That is really good progress, because I know that that issue has caused some angst across the House.
	I pay tribute to all the right hon. and hon. Members who took the time to come to this House this evening to speak about a subject of national importance, which we are proud to have put on the Order Paper so that our national Parliament could debate it. I congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), a colleague of mine on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, on his powerful speech. He has shown a keen interest in our servicemen in Northern Ireland.
	I end by echoing the words of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), who from the Dispatch Box said that no part of the United Kingdom is untouched by the effects of this issue. She got it in one: no part of this kingdom is untouched, whether it be Ulster, Scotland, Wales or the mainland of England. We are not untouched and we must make sure that we respond with valour, with decency and with honour for those people we hold in such high esteem.

Michael Penning: It is a privilege to wind up the second of this afternoon’s debates. Those who were not here for the first might be quite surprised that a Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office is winding up a debate on the military covenant. I will explain why in a moment, but first I want to say that I think this has been an excellent debate, although it is a shame it deteriorated a little into party politics. I do not think the military covenant should be about that. It is not about how difficult things are in certain parts of the country; how we do it is the most important thing for our veterans.
	The reason why a Northern Ireland Minister is replying to the debate is that the Democratic Unionist party, led by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), has used its time this afternoon to discuss the military covenant in relation to Northern Ireland in particular. Perhaps the next time we debate the covenant, we will have a bit more time and be able to discuss the really pressing issues, but I think we can move on.
	That 11 speeches were made in the short time allowed for the debate on the military covenant demonstrates the importance of its effects on our constituencies, no matter what part of the United Kingdom we represent. Listening to the debate, I have been proud to hear how representatives of our country who are not from the United Kingdom have also been honoured. I refer in
	particular to those from the Irish Republic. It is important that we recognise the dedication they have shown to Her Majesty’s armed forces.
	The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) is not in her place, but in the previous debate she said that she was born in 1971. I joined the Army as a boy soldier in 1974, which makes me feel extremely old. I did my basic training at Pirbright, where the Household Division trained together. Two young lads there were 16 years of age, like me, and from Ireland—one from Belfast, the other from Dublin. They were clearly from a different religious background and culturally they were very different. They were the toughest two soldiers in the whole of that Brigade Squad. One of them went on to become the company sergeant-major of the Irish Guards boys unit. He was from Dublin and I think he served for nearly 22 years. He was as tough as boots and as proud as punch of being an Irishman and from the south. He served his country, just as others do today, in the way that we would expect of any members of our armed forces.
	Some of my hon. Friends have drifted away to other duties, but I joined as a junior guardsman and left as a junior guardsman before re-enlisting as a private in the Royal Army Medical Corps to try to keep my para pay. That did not last very long, so I left as a private. It was particularly moving for me to attend the funeral of Corporal Channing Day and wear the RAMC tie, which I am also wearing today.
	The medics are an amazing group of people. During my time in the military they were developing techniques at great risk, literally on the front line. One of our servicemen had been blown up and a young man did a tracheotomy on him by putting a Bic pen straight into the front of his throat. He knew that, otherwise, that man would die. Our medics were not allowed to do tracheotomies, so he took a huge risk: either that person would die, or he would take the punishment. The guy lived and tracheotomy has moved on, particularly with front-line medics.
	When I was a shadow Health Minister, I had the privilege of visiting Camp Bastion and seeing mainly NHS medics working on the front-line as Territorials. Much of the skill in our A and E and major trauma units today is a result of the work of our medics out there. Frankly, any soldier or serviceman from any part of the armed forces anywhere in the world will say that being a battlefield medic, which is what Corporal Day was, is one of the most important jobs and that they need them by their side.

Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way?

Michael Penning: I would like to make progress, if I may. The hon. Gentleman sat with me at the church. One of the most moving things is that Corporal Day’s father is a veteran of the Royal Pioneer Corps. She desperately wanted to be an engineer, but she was too short and became a battlefield medic instead, and thank goodness that she did.

Jim Shannon: The Minister’s comments are very kind. It was a poignant occasion for us all. Camp Bastion has the best care in the world—it has saved the lives of servicemen who have lost three limbs. Does the Minister agree that that is an indication not just of the good work that our medical services do, but of that of the medics on the field of battle as well?

Michael Penning: That is a very important intervention. The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), has just whispered in my ear that 98%—I knew that the figure was good—of casualties who go into Camp Bastion field hospital alive come out alive. That is amazing and reflects the poignancy of part of this evening’s debate. People with physical and major trauma injuries are surviving today who would never have survived in the old days—sadly, we would have lost them many years ago. That means that our role when they come home is very important. An awful lot of the injured stay in the armed forces—a lot more than when I served—but many still leave.
	Those are the visible signs and we need to do everything we can for them, and the Royal British Legion, Help for Heroes and other units and benevolent funds are doing fantastic work. I completely agree that it will be really difficult when we come home from Afghanistan. That is true. When we come home from Afghanistan or from ops, donations to the Legion and Help for Heroes, which started during Iraq and Afghanistan, will drop. That is why it is so important that we get the money in now. The Government can do a lot, but those wonderful charities do an enormous amount of work.
	When I was at the Department for Transport, I sat on the military covenant committee chaired by the Prime Minister. I am proud to have been re-appointed to that committee as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. It is very important that the voice of Northern Ireland is heard on that committee. The Minister for Housing also sits on the committee. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) spoke about housing benefit. We know about that issue and the committee is working on how the benefit structure works. I, too, look forward to seeing the report when it comes out before Christmas.
	I will now touch on Northern Ireland and, in particular, the conflicting legislation. Rather than looking at why it is preventing us from doing things for veterans and their families, we should consider how we can move forward. It would be a good idea to consider that between now and the meeting with the Prime Minister on 12 December.

Jim Shannon: It is on the 19th.

Michael Penning: Sorry, the 19th. I expect that it is being moved in my diary as we speak, as I hope to be at the meeting.
	My one concern is that we must not be too prescriptive. As the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) said, a veteran might be living next door to someone who disagrees fundamentally with their serving in the armed forces. It is not as simple as turning up and saying, “I should be rehoused because I am a veteran.” In Northern Ireland, the situation is very difficult. In many cases, we might not want people to know that somebody is ex-service, where they are coming from or where they live, particularly if they come from the nationalist side. I have met many nationalist young people who have served in the armed forces. We have to be really careful not to make the situation worse for them while we are trying to make it better.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: I take entirely the point that the Minister is making, and m hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made it clear that we understand
	it. On the legislation, we are simply trying to create an enabling environment—not something prescriptive—in which we can do the things that we both want to do.

Michael Penning: I agree completely. That is exactly what we need to do. If we can do that, it will be excellent. However, there may still be circumstances in which we need to be very careful about how we proceed.
	I raised this issue with the brigadier in charge of 38 (Irish) Brigade at Corporal Day’s funeral, which was the earliest opportunity I had to do so. He said that in the interim, and even afterwards, Members should come to see him or me if they have constituency cases in Northern Ireland of the issues that have been raised. The rapport that the brigadier and his staff have with a lot of local authorities, which can be difficult in this sort of thing, is actually very good. What they say publicly sometimes differs from what they say privately, so we can address many of these issues.
	The Defence Minister will write to Members about many other questions that have been raised, but I will deal with one matter of which I am very conscious. I have lots of friends who served in the Falklands. One of my closest friends is Simon Weston, who has done unbelievable things for charity since he suffered his horrific injuries in the Falklands. He tells me all the time that mental health issues such as post-traumatic stress disorder—the percentages do not really matter—rarely show themselves early on, but become apparent later down the line. The difficulty is how we get people to address such problems. Very often, people do not know that they have them. If they do, they often do not want to tell people how they feel because they are very proud people who have served their country. I experienced that when I was in the fire service. I knew many guys who were really struggling with what they had seen over their 15 or 20 years of service. We have to give such people the opportunities to come forward, or have the expertise available for them from the various organisations.
	I have to sit down now. This has been an important debate and I am sorry if anybody is disappointed that it was a Northern Ireland Minister who summed up.
	Question put and agreed to.
	Resolved,
	That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the full implementation of the military covenant in each region of the United Kingdom.

Business without Debate

GROCERIES CODE ADJUDICATOR BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME0 (NO.2)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A( 7 )).
	That the Order of 19 November 2012 (Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows: In paragraph 2 (conclusion of proceedings in Public Bill Committee), for “Thursday 6 December”, substitute “Tuesday 18 December”.—(Nicky Morgan.)
	Question agreed  to .

EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),

EU Co-Financing for Actions in the Field of Asylum and Immigration

That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 14123/12, a draft decision of the European Parliament and Council amending decision No. 573/2007/EC, decision No. 575/2007/EC and Council decision 2007/435/EC with a view to increasing the co-financing rate of the European Refugee Fund, the European Return Fund and the European Fund for the Integration of Third Country Nationals as regards certain provisions relating to financial management for certain member states experiencing or threatened with serious financial difficulties with respect to their financial stability; notes that the draft decision would be subject to the UK’s opt-in; notes that the draft decision may increase the ability of certain member states, including Greece, to fully utilise solidarity funds, which have been severely impacted by the ongoing economic crisis; further notes that the Greek-Turkish border is the entry point for more than half of all illegal migrants to the EU, and many of these migrants travel onwards to the UK; agrees that the UK has an interest in seeing an improved response to migratory pressures in Greece, and that the effective use of solidarity funds can play an integral part in this improvement; and supports the Government’s view that this draft proposal would also provide benefit to Ireland with whom the UK has a shared border.—(Nicky  Morgan .)
	Question agreed to.

PETITIONS

Welfare Reform Act

Tom Blenkinsop: The petition states:
	To the House of Commons,
	The Petition of members of the National League of the Blind and Disabled and of residents of Teesside,
	Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Welfare Reform Act and the abolition of the Disability Living Allowance will adversely affect disabled people, including disabled workers at Ayresome Industries on Teesside. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to review and reverse welfare reform and cuts to service that disproportionately hit disabled people.
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	[P001135]

Emergency life support skills in schools

Julie Hilling: In advance of the debate tomorrow, I received a petition from residents of the United Kingdom. The original petition organised by the British Heart Foundation received 124,665 signatures.
	The petition states:
	The Petition from residents of the United Kingdom,
	Declares that the Petitioners believe that knowing how to stop bleeding, open an airway or perform CPR is an essential part of a young person’s education; and the Government should take steps to ensure that there is a new generation of life savers across the UK.
	The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to make emergency life support skills a part of the curriculum to be taught in all schools
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	[P001136]

0845 Phone Lines (DWP)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.)

John Healey: Some of the most important matters that MPs discuss in Parliament start with concerns that are raised with us by constituents, as is the case with this debate. People are routinely placed on hold for half an hour when calling the local job centre, or they are charged £40 in a single month for the cost of calls to Departments, when they simply try to report a change in circumstances. Such bills are run up because, as I established through freedom of information requests and parliamentary answers, the Department for Work and Pensions has 148 separate phone lines all using 0845 numbers that can cost up to 10p per minute from a landline and 41p per minute from mobile phones.
	People who need to call those numbers are usually on a fixed, low income. They are elderly, vulnerable or unwell, and they are being charged rip-off rates to sort out problems or simply get information about sickness and disability benefits, carers support, jobs, pensions, child support, and even crisis loans.

Jim Shannon: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the best way would be not to charge at all for such phone lines, which are used by the elderly, single parents, those on low incomes and those in poverty?

John Healey: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support for my argument. He is right that thousands of people in his constituency, in mine and in the Minister’s will be affected by those premium-rate lines and the rip-off call charges that people can suffer. The cost of the call takes a big chunk out of already stretched budgets. That can put people off making calls to get the help they need.

Henry Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

John Healey: I was not aware of the hon. Gentleman’s interest in the debate beforehand, but I will of course give way.

Henry Smith: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He will know from his time as shadow Health Secretary, which was more than a year ago, that phone lines are a problem not only for the Department for Work and Pensions, but for the health service. Contrary to Department of Health advice, many general practitioner services still have 0845 numbers. Surely the solution is to use geographical or 0300 numbers.

John Healey: I am glad I gave way and welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. He is right, because guidance was issued in 2009—regulations were put in place in 2010, but they have not been enforced.
	If it gives the hon. Gentleman any comfort, I ran a campaign in my local area because GP surgeries in Barnsley and Rotherham were using 0845 numbers for people who wanted access to the surgery. I am happy to say that all 16 of those using the numbers in Barnsley have switched to the landlines that the hon. Gentleman advocates, as have 22 out of the 24 GP centres using the
	numbers in Rotherham. I should tell the Minister, as the hon. Gentleman has, that change is possible and can be done. It requires the will of the Department for Work and Pensions, just as it does the will of the Department of Health and the NHS.
	On calls to the Department for Work and Pensions, Mr Roger Clark of Goldthorpe put it to me like this:
	“We cannot afford to do this out of our benefits with the cost of gas, electricity, water, food and fuel being so expensive”.
	Quite simply, the Department is hitting the people that it is there to help. The situation is getting more serious. Many people now rely on mobiles. One in six people live in homes without landlines. Ninety-two per cent. of adults have a mobile phone, and the number is increasing.
	The Secretary of State told me in writing in the summer:
	“Jobcentre Plus is subject to the Department’s telephony numbering policy, which is that all calls should be free to our 0800 numbers to claim…State pension…Pension credit…Jobseekers allowance…Employment and support allowance…Emergency payments or crisis loans.”
	That is correct, but it is misleading. Those are a small minority of dedicated DWP phone lines. As the Minister confirmed in a parliamentary answer last month, fully 87% of the Department’s phone lines use the 0845 number, including the disability living allowance and attendance allowance helplines; Jobseeker Direct, which helps people to find or make an appointment with Jobcentre Plus; all local jobcentres; Employment Direct, which is used for advertising jobs; the social fund; the winter fuel helpline; and the child maintenance line. The list goes on, and time is limited. In other words, people can pay up to 41p a minute in phone call charges for almost all inquiries to check the progress of applications, to ask for information and advice, to report a mistake or change in circumstances, and to make claims for some benefits and other support payments.
	The other day, someone locally who helps others to deal with the problems they face in the benefits and tax credits system said:
	“I called the Jobcentre and tax credit office last week for a lady only to find after looking at her itemised”
	telephone
	“bill it had cost her £4.55; and this was only the calls that could be checked as calls under 50p are not itemised.”
	She added:
	“To someone in this lady’s position as a single mum this is the equivalent of her daily food bill.”
	This is not just a problem of call rates. We have an excellent welfare rights service, run by Rotherham district council. Staff there told me of a client this week who needed to check on the progress of her employment and support allowance claim. She has debts, as well as mental health difficulties. The advice worker said that
	“she needed a great deal of encouragement from the adviser just to use the phone and she simply couldn’t afford to call the DWP. So she used the office landline, and the length of the two calls was over 30 minutes before she was then told she’d have to call back another time, as all the staff were busy.”
	There are almost 8,000 people on jobseeker’s allowance in Barnsley, nearly 9,000 in Rotherham, and more than 45,000 across south Yorkshire. A further 38,000 across south Yorkshire receive income support and 37,000 get incapacity benefit. This is a scandal on a massive scale. The Department’s response to my FOI request showed
	that well over 30 million people call just seven of the DWP’s most commonly used inquiry lines each year—never mind the 141 other lines.
	These 0845 numbers are formally called number translation services. The NTS is dialled by a caller and is diverted to its destination. This process can include features such as distributing calls between multiple sites, routeing calls according to the caller’s location and, of course, transmitting recorded announcements. But the key feature of these number translation services is that the call revenue from the customer can be—and normally is—shared between the telecoms company and the organisation receiving the call, the former receiving the access charge component and the latter receiving the service charge or the termination rate as it is known.
	The Minister is relatively new to his brief, but the Government have had plenty of notice about the problems with the 0845 numbers. Back in 2006, Ofcom said:
	“Ofcom continues to recommend that public bodies should not use NTS numbers exclusively…especially when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups. The new 03 country-wide numbers, proposed as part of Ofcom’s Numbering Review, would be well suited to the needs of many public bodies currently using chargeable 08 numbers.”
	Those 03 numbers were introduced the following year, and Ofcom recommends the use of these numbers, which provide the same additional functionality as 08 numbers but are priced the same as a geographic numbers and—crucially—have no revenue sharing.
	The long-standing campaigner and expert David Hickson and the fair telecoms campaign take the same view—that 03 numbers are
	“a perfectly acceptable option for normal engagement between citizens and public bodies”.
	I go further, and Ministers make three arguments in response to my challenge. First they say that the DWP will ring people back, but too many constituents tell me that this is not offered and does not happen. The FOI figures I have show that hundreds of thousands of callers each week give up on getting through after being kept on hold and charged. More than one in three calls to the employment and support allowance helpline are abandoned before they are answered, but on average more than five minutes after they have been connected. Callers to the incapacity benefit reassessment line wait nearly 13 minutes without being answered before they hang up.
	Secondly, Ministers say that there are customer access phones in most—but not all—jobcentres. Let me again quote from a constituent in Goldthorpe in Dearne who says that
	“in my case the jobcentre at Goldthorpe the phone is in the corner where everybody who goes in to the office can overhear your conversations not in a sound proof booth so your conversations cannot be overheard.”
	Frankly, people are having to give very private, personal and financial information through these phone lines. It is not acceptable to say, “There are these phones in the Jobcentre Plus office in the public space.”
	Thirdly, the Department says that it does not benefit from the premium rate charges that people have to pay to ring it, but someone is making money from these calls. If the Government are not sharing the extra revenue and are letting the telecoms companies keep all
	the extra charges, the 0845 numbers are not just a bad deal for benefits claimants, but for the taxpayer.
	Change is possible. I mentioned the changes to GP surgeries and the approach of the Department of Health and the NHS. The Minister might also care to look at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, because it ended a consultation on implementing the consumer rights directive, which was agreed by all member states in the EU last year. This will
	“prohibit excessive phone charges for consumers contacting traders about existing contracts.”
	In other words, all post-contract customer helplines will have to charge the consumer no more than the basic rate for a telephone call. According to the Department, the intention is
	“that traders should not use high charges to deter existing customers with legitimate queries, complaints or cancellation requests from contacting them nor derive revenue benefit from such contacts”.
	The parallels are clear; the lessons are clear. I hope the Minister and his colleagues in the DWP will learn those lessons. Because things are poised to get much worse now is the time for him to act. I fear that there could be an explosion of inquiries and problems for people because of the current turmoil in the benefit system at the very time the Government are cutting face-to-face service staff and forcing people to use phones instead. The combination of sudden cuts in benefits payments, delays in decisions and the introduction of universal credit next year could lead to chaos and much higher costs for those making calls.
	What should the Minister do? Responsibility for running an efficient and equitable system of benefit support lies with the Government. I see contact centres and phone lines for access as part of the running costs of government. Therefore, there is a strong, principled case for making free the phone access that people need if they are to claim and to continue to receive their benefits, tax credits, pensions or child support. I want the Government to make these changes.
	After all, the Department makes calls free with the 0800 numbers for new claims for some benefits. With the Ofcom changes to come in shortly, that will apply to all mobile calls, not just landline calls. As a minimum, all lines for all dealings with the DWP should be switched to 03 numbers, so that the cost is never more than calls to a 01 or a 02 number, and they must be part of any inclusive discount schemes in the same way. These numbers were launched five years ago for Government, public bodies, charities and not-for-profit organisations to use. Ofcom has reserved 0345 numbers for each of the equivalent 0845 numbers, so that the switch could be made with minimum cost and minimum confusion.
	Finally, I called this debate to expose the extent of the rip-off rates that many of the poorest, most distressed and highly vulnerable are paying to get the welfare support to which they are entitled. I leave the last words to a local man from Barnsley who said:
	“You haven’t the money to pay to phone these numbers, and yet you have to phone them. It’s a poor person’s trap.”
	It is unfair and unjustifiable, and it must change.

Mark Hoban: I congratulate the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey)
	on securing this debate. He focused most of his remarks on 0845 numbers, but they are not the only numbers the Department uses. As I explain, I will give a more balanced picture of the telephone situation than the one he gave in what I thought was a selective presentation of the information.
	The Department has set out clear principles for the provision of telephone services. Indeed, they were set out when the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the previous Government in 2008. There are four clear principles. First, calls to claim benefits should be free to the customer. Secondly, there should be a consistent approach across the Department, both for clarity and equity. Thirdly, the approach should make sense from the customer’s point of view, rather than being driven by product lines or organisational structure. Fourthly, it must be sustainable in terms of future business models and changes in the telephony market.
	To enact those principles, calls to claim benefit are free and utilise 0800 numbers. The right hon. Gentleman said that crisis loan calls were not free, but they are. Other calls that typically take less time to resolve are made to 0845 numbers. Their use means that the customer is charged the same amount regardless of their geographical location or that of the DWP office they are calling. The exact cost will vary depending on the caller’s phone number and the service provider. I will give more detail on that later.
	The Department provides customers with a facility to make a free telephone call to claim the state pension, pension credit, jobseeker’s allowance, employment and support allowance, crisis loans and other emergency payments. These calls are free of charge from all major landline providers. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the Ofcom changes making it free to call these numbers from a mobile. The Department has already made that change. As a result, eight of the UK’s largest mobile phone operators—O2, Orange, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Hutchison 3G, Tesco Mobile, Virgin Mobile and Cable and Wireless—allow their customers to make those calls for free already.
	The Department uses 0800 and 0845 numbers, rather than the geographical 01 and 02 numbers, to enable the operation of a virtual telephony network across the UK. This network has been in place for working-age benefits and crisis loans since 2008, and allows callers to be directed to the next available adviser with the appropriate skills to answer a customer’s inquiry. For example, someone ringing from their home in Rotherham or Barnsley to make a claim for jobseeker’s allowance might be connected to an adviser in Dundee, Derby or Poole. They will be directed to the first adviser available, rather than left hanging on the telephone waiting for the call to be answered in their local benefit or contact centre. Furthermore, should that person wish to make an inquiry about their benefits later on, that call would be answered by the first available adviser in a centre, wherever that centre might be, rather than left waiting for someone in their local centre to answer.
	The use of these numbers gives the Department the flexibility to manage the peaks and troughs of the different types of inquiries it receives nationally. Calls can be routed to additional centres, as and when volumes require, and advisers are trained to handle more than one type of inquiry. This method of handling customer calls has proved to be much more efficient than the
	previous system, under which calls were directed to specific offices without the facility to reroute them to meet customer demands. It is designed to help facilitate and speed up the response to telephone calls. The use of geographic numbers would undermine the ability of the business to manage effectively the significant volume of calls received each year, and would result in a less efficient process.
	Let me deal with the issue of costs. Charges for 0845 numbers vary depending on the service provider, personal contract and time of day a call is made. As a result, the costs to consumers are beyond DWP control. About 75% of calls to the DWP originate from landlines. If calls to 0845 numbers fall within the terms of a customer’s call plan, they are free. BT, the largest landline provider, charges 7.95p a minute, plus a 13.1p connection fee, where the call is made outside the inclusive plan. The right hon. Gentleman implied, without really making it explicit, that he thought the Government were benefitting from the cost of 0845 calls. We do not receive the termination payment. Other major landline providers charge between 6.63p and 10.22p a minute—also with connection charges—while the charge varies for calls from mobiles.
	The right hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of 03 numbers. Depending on the service provider and the contract or call plan, many customers would currently pay more to contact the DWP if 0845 numbers were simply replaced by 03 numbers, so that would not be an easy solution to the problem. He needs to recognise that the situation is more complex than that.

John Healey: The caller pays the termination charge, so if the Government do not receive it, and most organisations using the service receive the access charge component, who receives the value of the termination charge?

Mark Hoban: The people or organisations hosting those 0845 numbers are the ones who earn the components of those calls.
	Let me turn to the duration of calls. In line with the departmental principles that I outlined at the outset, calls to claim benefit should be free, because they are longer on average than calls to other numbers. For example, between April and October the average duration of calls by working-age customers to our free 0800 numbers was 25 minutes and 28 seconds, while the average duration of calls to our 0845 numbers was seven minutes and 42 seconds. We have sought to use our resources to ensure that those making the longest calls—mainly to claim benefits—can make them for free. Again, that is an important distinction that we need to recognise. Duration of calls is a factor that we have taken into account for those lines used to make claims, because there can be quite lengthy discussions between DWP claimants and call centre agents.
	We have touched on the cost of 0845 calls and what would happen if we replaced them. The estimate is that replacing 0845 numbers with a free service would cost in excess of £12 million, because of changes to contracts and significant migration costs, including changes to branding and marketing. It is unlikely that mobile phone operators would agree to extend the scope of the current agreement for free mobile calls to the DWP’s 0800 numbers to cover such an increase. The right hon.
	Gentleman talked about the number of unemployed people in his constituency. Spending £12 million on migrating to 0800 numbers would mean £12 million less to spend on the Department’s other activities. He is a former Treasury Minister and he will know about the priorities and difficult choices that Governments have to make about where money is spent. If we spend more money on free telephone calls, someone else somewhere in the system has to bear that cost. I want to ensure that as much of our taxpayers’ money as possible is spent on getting people into work, rather than looking at further changes to the telephony service, particularly given that the longest calls made by people claiming benefits are to free-phone numbers.
	The right hon. Gentleman was slightly dismissive of the mitigation measures we have put in place to help customers. We will offer to terminate a call and ring the customer back if they are concerned about the cost. That service is available, and I think it is well known. I would encourage people who are concerned about the cost to use that service.
	We also provide customer access phones in Jobcentre Plus. I suspect that if they were put in a soundproof booth in the corner, the right hon. Gentleman would accuse us of hiding them from claimants. I have known him long enough to suggest that that might be a line of attack that he might take. We ensure that the phones are visible and that they can be used. As part of our
	strategy, we are also encouraging more people to use online facilities to seek information and guidance. We have launched a new online service for jobseekers this week, which will help to improve the quality of service. We are trying to increase the number of ways in which claimants can contact the DWP without necessarily having to use the telephone service, and as we continue to develop our digital strategy, that will become an important part of how we deliver benefits. It is also a key part of universal credit.
	In conclusion, we recognise that the issue about customer waiting times is an important one. That is why we have recruited more staff and trained them on 0845 benefit inquiry lines. The working age and pensions service lines have a central network management team that can move work around the network in real time to bring a balance of service delivery on all service lines. We are also trying to improve our call answering metrics. In line with the principles set out by the previous Government, which we have followed, we have ensured that calls in which people are making claims are free, to 0800 numbers, and that customers know that there are alternatives out there if they feel that the cost of calling an 0845 number is prohibitively expensive. We are taking the right action, and we want to continue to promote such alternatives to our claimants.
	Question put and agreed to.
	House adjourned.

Deferred Division

Social Security

That this draft Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 16 July, be approved.
	The House divided:
	Ayes 283, Noes 203.

Question accordingly agreed to.